Jump to content

Hot and Kassel cut


  • This topic is locked This topic is locked
251 replies to this topic

#136
GMoney

GMoney

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,118 posts
  • Supports:New York Red Bulls

Yep, so when Arsenal and Man U needed help they thought about fairness and reached into their deep programs and gave a chance to Henry and Scholes, right?

Wrong, they only thought about winning. They didn't say here is my chance to give a young bloke a chance, they said what do I have to win and they chose maturity over inexperience in the situations where it mattered.


I understand where you're coming from but I follow those teams way to close to know that is 100% not true. Man U did bring young guys along and give them a chance. Young English midfielder Tom Cleverly started the season at CM until the hack Kevin Davies busted his ankle. The rash of injuries in Man U midfield was like never before seen. I watched 1 game where the started a central midfield duo of Park Ji Sung and Rafael. That's right, a winger and a right back. They had no one else left, so they took a flyer on Scholes.

Bringing up Arsenal is the worst possible thing you could do. They get bashed daily for not bringing in needed veterans and using too many kids. They've had a ton of injuries and guys to to African Cup of Nations. They were using youngsters like Colquen, Jenkenson, Miquel, Frimpong, and Oxade-Chamberlain. Henry was brought in as a novelty and as I predicted saw very limited minutes. Played well, too.

But those clubs absolutely look to pull from their own youth systems before getting mediocre players from other teams. When the do splash for transfers, it's usually big.

The New York Red Bulls previously kicked around Major League Soccer as the MetroStars with limited success. But after transforming under a new banner in 2005, the Red Bulls have become a force to be reckoned with in the Eastern Conference. The club has made leaps of progress since its previous incarnation and now has its focus on bringing the league title to New York. Grab your New York Red Bulls soccer jersey and other gear here at MLSGear.com.


#137
JBigjake54

JBigjake54

    Amicus Curiae

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 24,312 posts
  • Supports:MetroStars

what we have here is a foreign manger that seems to feel only Europeans can play this game and he is forcing an exodus of practically ever American born player on the books in favor of fringe European league players

Then, why are we surprised? Unless an American prospect blows Backe's socks off, he's unlikely to last. The bigger question may be, did these players come here with talent, and potential? If no, what is wrong with the scouting & selection process? If yes, then the question becomes, why can't we develop them further? Sometimes, the student fails. Sometimes, the teacher.

if you evaluate these moves one at a time, many of them make sense. But all these moves when added together paint a big picture of a team-building strategy that not only goes counter-intuitive to what has been successful in MLS, but has been a complete and utter failure for 16 years.

The turnover cycle contributes to this.
http://en.wikipedia....ls#Head_coaches
The only change, is that the annual turnover changed to a 2-year, and now 3-year cycle. The new regime arrives, nneds to rebuild, and blames the old leadership for any initial lack of success. Then, it hypes any marginal progress (cup final, conference win), repeats the mistakes of the prior dynasties, and exits unceremoniously.
"Meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

a fanbase desperate for results now but that also (sensibly) wants to build a strong foundation for the long haul. Not the easiest thing to do


Pretty much the situation for every team in professional sports. Some manage to do both, some manage to do one, some manage to do neither. Anyone doubt where we fall in?

We are good enough to beat the best teams, and bad enough to lose to the worst teams. 


#138
RedBullScouse

RedBullScouse

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,798 posts
  • Supports:Irresistable Mermaids/Liverpool/RU

And what trend are you referring to? Where is this long list of great young American talent Soler has given away for nothing that have turned into stars elsewhere? Who are these guys that would have brought us over the top for a trophy?

Still waiting. Jeremy Hall? Garcia? Chinn? Lassiter? Magee is really better than Luke? He was going to bring us a trophy? If you went club by club, you'd see we are not unique in this.

How dare we cut a promising young American like John Rooney? Everyone so desperately wants to believe that our colleges are full of world-beating talent just waiting to be given a chance...

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." - Iron Mike

 

Bitch covered my plaid?
The sorrow inside me grows.
I need my plaid pitch.

"It goes without saying that when things don't go your way they just don't go your way. " - JCO

"He can't kick with his left foot, he can't tackle, he can't head the ball and he doesn't score many goals. Apart from that, he's all right.”
George Best, on David Beckham


#139
Voice of Reason II

Voice of Reason II

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,065 posts
So many questions:

If we sign a homegrown, should they be guaranteed more than a year's contract? If so, for how long?

How many starts should they get in their 1st year? In their 2nd, 3rd, etc?

How many minutes or appearances in regular season games is enough to assess the potential of any of our signees?

Is at least one complete game necessary to be "fair" in judging a player? If more than one, how many?

Do we keep a player if they are homegrown or young even if we find a better player? If so, for how long?

Should we maintain a minimum level of American players higher than what we have at present?

How many regular season games per year are you willing to risk losing by giving young players a "fair chance" to show whether or not they are ready to play in MLS when a more proven player is available?

How much game experience does a young player need to actually develop to the next level? How many young players can we afford to give that "chance" to per year?

For 2012 if there has to be a tradeoff, would you rather have us try and win the shield and the USOC, or develop players for the future?

If we blame Hans for starting too few veterans in the USOC, is it also correct to blame him for starting too many veterans in MLS play?

If we are successful at developing young players, how long do we try and keep them if there is interest from abroad?

Should we be trading more to get top 15 draft picks or trading our 1st round picks to get established players?


There are, of course, many more questions than this, but these are the type of things that need to be thought about.

#140
GMoney

GMoney

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,118 posts
  • Supports:New York Red Bulls

Magee is really better than Luke? He was going to bring us a trophy? If you went club by club, you'd see we are not unique in this.


Yeah! It's not like Magee scored a bunch of clutch goals in the play-offs last year to lead his team to the MLS Cup.

...and it's not like Luke and Magee didn't play against each other in the play-offs last year and Magee clearly outplayed him and scored more goals or something....


I don't want to get into your guys back and forth. You just picked a bad example.

The New York Red Bulls previously kicked around Major League Soccer as the MetroStars with limited success. But after transforming under a new banner in 2005, the Red Bulls have become a force to be reckoned with in the Eastern Conference. The club has made leaps of progress since its previous incarnation and now has its focus on bringing the league title to New York. Grab your New York Red Bulls soccer jersey and other gear here at MLSGear.com.


#141
jamison

jamison

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,506 posts
  • Supports:New York

Still waiting.


For the record, I think you are setting the bar impossibly high, and then using the fact that no one has vaulted over it to prove your case, which is, in the least, dubious logic.

I don't personally expect Kassel to turn into a "star", but he could turn into the Mike Magee-level dependable MLS player that other MLS teams routinely win with, and we do not. Is Magee a "star" player? No, he only had 5 goals in the regular season last year. But, he was good enough to knock us out of the playoffs. I'd take him over paying $ 280k to Salou. I do credit Backe & Soler for bringing on Cooper, he should be a good addition this year. That said, we also have a central midfield of Rafa (who could miss 5-8 weeks on INTL duty, if he goes to the Olympics), Teemu who is oft injured, Palsson who is an unknown, and a number of trialists. People keep bringing up Da Luz "not being in the league anymore" as proof that he'll never turn into anything. As this year in NY has shown, Lin & Victor Cruz were both at times "not in the league anymore". Shit happens. Will he turn into them? Likely no, but, aren't the trialists on trial because they are "no longer in the league anymore" of the last league they were playing in? I can't really throw a guy out in one case & hang my hat on another in a similar situation.

It's not that I believe Kassel will turn into a star, it's that I don't think we kept him long enough, or gave him enough of a shot to know. Something we've done time & time again. The guy is an attacking mid, and got 82 minutes in midfield last year, while Ballouchy got 1500 (playing all over), and now we're okay to cut him because he is the 5th d-mid. Okay, but he's the 2nd A-mid on a team with so few of them that it is playing without one this year in a flat 4 midfield, and the first A-mid off the bench right now is Ballouchy. Call me crazy, but I'd have been okay with Hans giving 500 of those minutes to Kassel this year. I expect that to be less of an issue if/when we sign some trialists (who will count against the cap, and the roster) and may be moot altogether if we sign an A-mid in May (who won't come until July). But if the season rolls around and we see Ballouchy getting 20 minutes a game, color me unimpressed with "the plan".

I'm not calling anyone a cunt, disrespecting anyone, or calling anyone an apologist. But it is fair to ask questions about our direction. We are something like 26-17-22 in the last 2 years of this direction, with about 100 out of 195 points. I think it's fair to at least ask if we're doing this the right way. God forbid we look back to see the all time record of this team, and the similar direction it followed, we'd all vomit.

And, for the record, I've gotten over Brad Davis, but when his team keeps making the final & winning trophies & ours does not, he gets pointed out as the evidence that the strategy of young (largely American) MLS veterans works time & time again, yet gets routinely ignored. Colorado won a title with some pretty "blah" players (especially compared to ours, on paper), but it's people we don't fancy like Jeff Larentowicz & Kyle Beckerman that keep walking away with cups, while we "re-tool" for next year.

As for Backe & Soler's "plans", they traded for DeRo saying that he was the kind of guy we needed. Quote:

“We had to trade Tony and Danleigh, two very talented, young players who both need more playing time with a first team in MLS to develop their potential. At the end, we think this is a massive step in our quest toward the MLS Cup title.”


Who lasted less than 90 days. Quote (NJ.com Michael Fensom's opinion, then Soler)

It was not that De Rosario — a consumate professional, according to Soler — was not helping the Red Bulls, rather that McCarty could help the team more. Now and in the future.

"When we sat down, (coach) Hans (Backe) and myself, and really went through the situation and what we really needed, for now and for the next year," Soler said, "we added up some financial thoughts and salary cap thoughts, it made sense for us. And we wanted to do it quickly and we did."


So, if you really need someone that they traded away who became a star...does the 2011 MVP winner count?

Many of us scratched our heads but tried to go "silver lining" on the Dax deal by saying "well, DeRo wanted a DP contract in 2012, and Dax is young, American and cheap, so, maybe longterm...."

But, may I just ask....where is Dax McCarty on the depth chart at D-mid nowadays? Behind: Rafa, Palsson, Teemu...? So, even throwing out the American angle for a moment...we traded 2 young players, a first round pick, and the 2011 MVP, for the 4th D-mid on our team?

Again, not calling anyone a piece of this here, but, if those are the results of "the plan", then "the plan" is going to get called into question.

 


#142
JayDelight729

JayDelight729

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 17,017 posts
  • Location:The Old El Pastor Parking Lot
  • Supports:Metro
I think this whole thing is disappointing, BUT we don't know who they are being replaced with.

If they are never going to play, does it make sense to have them on the roster just to pad our homegrown signing #s?

"Obviously, I want to make a living (in soccer), to say the least," he said. "There's so much you can accomplish in the soccer world, and right now I'm focused on having a good season with the Red Bulls. Ultimately, our goal is to win the MLS Cup, and I see no reason why we can't." - #4 Tyler Adams


#143
jamison

jamison

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,506 posts
  • Supports:New York

If they are never going to play, does it make sense to have them on the roster just to pad our homegrown signing #s?


Hans likes to roll 12 deep. By the 'they were never going to play' logic, you could have rightly thrown out half of our team last year. Just sayin'.

If the best thing, hell- if the only thing, that comes out of all of this is that Hans uses a rotation of like 15-16 guys, I'm ok with that. Stick with the 11 starters you like, sure, but get dudes off the bench before minute 87 once in a while.

The "11 men & 3 minutes of Ballouchy" machine fired more hits than misses last year.

 


#144
RedBullScouse

RedBullScouse

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,798 posts
  • Supports:Irresistable Mermaids/Liverpool/RU

For the record, I think you are setting the bar impossibly high, and then using the fact that no one has vaulted over it to prove your case, which is, in the least, dubious logic.

I don't personally expect Kassel to turn into a "star", but he could turn into the Mike Magee-level dependable MLS player that other MLS teams routinely win with, and we do not. Is Magee a "star" player?

Dax is young, American and cheap, so, maybe longterm...."

Set the bar anywhere you want. The players we've let go have done nothing in this league worth mention. Nothing.

Magee was 24 when we let him go... not a kid, not a big loss, not as good as Luke, and not a Soler decision anyway.

And the fact that they went with Dax... a "young, American" player is further evidence against the anti-young American nonsense spewed here by so many.

There is no factual support for an irrational anti-young American bias. Period. But haters gonna hate.

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." - Iron Mike

 

Bitch covered my plaid?
The sorrow inside me grows.
I need my plaid pitch.

"It goes without saying that when things don't go your way they just don't go your way. " - JCO

"He can't kick with his left foot, he can't tackle, he can't head the ball and he doesn't score many goals. Apart from that, he's all right.”
George Best, on David Beckham


#145
AHighBlackman

AHighBlackman

    First Team

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 865 posts
  • Location:Bronx NY
  • Supports: Metro! - USMNT -

Still waiting. Jeremy Hall? Garcia? Chinn? Lassiter? Magee is really better than Luke? He was going to bring us a trophy? If you went club by club, you'd see we are not unique in this.

How dare we cut a promising young American like John Rooney? Everyone so desperately wants to believe that our colleges are full of world-beating talent just waiting to be given a chance...

Mike Jones, Nick Zimmerman, Cepero, Paullo players who weren't rated by Soler. They are all world beaters.
  •    Starting 11
  • ------ BWP ---------
  •   ------ SK ---------
  • - Grella ------ L.Sam ---
  • ----- Felipe - Dax ---------
  • Kemar -------------  Duvall
  •      Damien - M&M

Blood Diamond

4 - 3 - 3

4 - 2 - 3 - 1

@RaceCardUser

Instagram: blackmanjustin

 

 

 


#146
RedBullScouse

RedBullScouse

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,798 posts
  • Supports:Irresistable Mermaids/Liverpool/RU

Mike Jones, Nick Zimmerman, Cepero, Paullo players who weren't rated by Soler. They are all world beaters.

:cheers:

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." - Iron Mike

 

Bitch covered my plaid?
The sorrow inside me grows.
I need my plaid pitch.

"It goes without saying that when things don't go your way they just don't go your way. " - JCO

"He can't kick with his left foot, he can't tackle, he can't head the ball and he doesn't score many goals. Apart from that, he's all right.”
George Best, on David Beckham


#147
RedBullScouse

RedBullScouse

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 19,798 posts
  • Supports:Irresistable Mermaids/Liverpool/RU

Hans likes to roll 12 deep. By the 'they were never going to play' logic, you could have rightly thrown out half of our team last year. Just sayin'.

If the best thing, hell- if the only thing, that comes out of all of this is that Hans uses a rotation of like 15-16 guys, I'm ok with that. Stick with the 11 starters you like, sure, but get dudes off the bench before minute 87 once in a while.

The "11 men & 3 minutes of Ballouchy" machine fired more hits than misses last year.

You don't know that he likes to "roll 12 deep." Have you followed his career enough before he came here to conclude that? All you know is that he didn't rate our bench strong enough to go any deeper than he did.

"Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth." - Iron Mike

 

Bitch covered my plaid?
The sorrow inside me grows.
I need my plaid pitch.

"It goes without saying that when things don't go your way they just don't go your way. " - JCO

"He can't kick with his left foot, he can't tackle, he can't head the ball and he doesn't score many goals. Apart from that, he's all right.”
George Best, on David Beckham


#148
Hutskizzle

Hutskizzle

    Player/Manager

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,765 posts

You don't know that he likes to "roll 12 deep." Have you followed his career enough before he came here to conclude that? All you know is that he didn't rate our bench strong enough to go any deeper than he did.

Posted Image

Mike
Petke
Fever
Catch It.


#149
jamison

jamison

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,506 posts
  • Supports:New York

You don't know that he likes to "roll 12 deep." Have you followed his career enough before he came here to conclude that?


Using a bit of levity & a sense of humor. Look into it, it won't kill you. I promise.

All you know is that he didn't rate our bench strong enough to go any deeper than he did.


Posted Image


You're right. All I know about his talent selection skills & game management is that he didn't trust anyone on the bench he & Soler spent a year and a half building the depth of, to use them. Clearly, that's MY fault for not understanding "the plan". In all seriousness, the guy does make a mistake now & again. It's fair to question it.

I support the team, not some Hans Backe suicide pact. I gave Bob Bradley shit when he did this exact same thing.

When he does well (2010 Eastern Conference title), he should get credit. Good job, clever Hans.

When he drags us through a 2 wins in 18 shit show, he deserves blame. Boo, evil Hans.

Is it really "hating" to have the temerity to ask if our coach might have the wrong end of the stick now & again? I've repeatedly said they've had a good off-season. I may not get 1 or 2 moves here, but, all in all- as long as Conde is indeed healthy all year- we should win the East. I do believe that. But, that doesn't mean the man is infallible.

Speaking of still waiting, I'm still waiting for an explanation on why his coaching brilliance was so undeniable that Thierry Henry tore apart the locker room in disgust with him midway through last year, and why we heard rumblings in September/October that he wasn't adequately preparing the team, from heavyweight European players that were/are still on it.

Guess I just need a North Korean national team jersey to wear to games instead.

 


#150
BlancDaBody

BlancDaBody

    First Team

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,362 posts
  • Location:Bronx, NY
  • Supports:RBNY, Coventry City, USMNT

Speaking of still waiting, I'm still waiting for an explanation on why his coaching brilliance was so undeniable that Thierry Henry tore apart the locker room in disgust with him midway through last year, and why we heard rumblings in September/October that he wasn't adequately preparing the team, from heavyweight European players that were/are still on it.

Guess I just need a North Korean national team jersey to wear to games instead.


Nothing undeniable about it. He makes def makes mistakes, we've seen them. However, this nonsense about Hans hating using youth (and Americans?) is just plain stupid. Possibly as dumb as Bouna's "African Hate" beef with this organization.

Bottom line is, two players were dropped that had no place on this team. Either could go on and be successful elsewhere, but right now it isn't happening here. People get cut, it's a professional league and I'm sure that these guys already know the score. The difference between Kassel and guys like Jeremy Lin and Victor Cruz is that Lin/Cruz got shit done when they finally had a shot to do so. Neither of Kassel/Hot wow'ed anybody. Hans found dudes who he rates more highly than Kassel/Hot and they are now out - this is the nature of the bizz.
"I'm Thierry Henry, BITCH!"
"I'M STRONG!" - Thierry Henry




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users