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Red Bull Killing Football


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#136
RiverEnergyDrink

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i dont really see any use in starting posts like these, harraby. this argument has been amongst all of us since the takeover occured. i will never forget metro but i will give credit where credit is due in regards to red bull. i didnt think we'd ever have owners that invest so much and really drive so hard to make us a championship calibre club and i am incredibly greatful for this. ive been coming to games since the first year when i was 7 years old and none of your arguements against the club resonate with me (no trophies ever, who the owner is, etc etc) because this is a team that i love and will continue to love regardless of who's in the front office and how we do on the pitch. and when that first trophy is won, whether it be a mls cup or a us open cup, i will break down in tears, as will many others on this site, because this club is love to me. im probably being hyprocritical in saying your argument doesnt stir me up since you have gotten a reaction out of me haha. but anyways, take what you want out of all this takeover stuff by red bulls. what really matters to me is going down to the stadium every game and cheering on the boys through thick and thin.

#137
Jeremy Thunder

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There is little to no individual attention paid to our club.

It's an ownership group, and we are a franchise of it. We have a massive staff on hand to pay "individual attention," that's how a corporation works. Not sure how you think any sport ownership relationship works, but I'd say 99% of the time, the owner is the money man, and they have a staff of people to pay "individual attention" to the club itself.

The problem (and it is one that I will ALWAYS have) is that we are simply a branch of the RB sport division of RB corporate. They have their drink division, their hockey division, their football division, and we're one of 4 clubs within that division.

Sure, this team is part of a greater marketing strategy, but is that really the worst thing in the world? Would you rather be stuck in a situation like the Revs have, with an owner with shit-tons of cash, yet none for the club? A shitty stadium with no plans in site for a new location? A team in desperate need of rebuilding? A frustrated and dwindling fanbase? They get to keep their name and history, though. (This isn't meant to sound as snotty as it's coming off, but I do legitimately wonder how a team like NE would react to a corporate takeover similar to the RB affair. They could probably use it.)

But we have a marketing budget that currently stands at $0.00. We are the only professional sporting club in this country with a marketing budget of zero.

The marketing situation is definitely a fucking catastrophe, but I doubt anybody who posts on this board is in a position to point blame in any direction with any informed opinion.

But they didn't have to rip the name off of our club to do it. It is a fact that is conveniently ignored by the blind apologists here.

They didn't have to change the name, but like you said, it's part of a greater marketing strategy. We made a deal with the devil, so to speak. We get the championship team and beautiful stadium, in exchange for the name and logo. I guess I'm just reiterating what we all already know, but again, it's that trade-off. This is the modern world, Redbull aren't a philanthropic group, they're a softdrink megacorporation. They're not just going to donate several hundred million dollars, and keep the team named after another corporation. So it's all about the tradeoff. History and no stadium/no winning team, or Redbull and possibly the best team in league history.

What I want is an owner who is committed to making this club part of the community. Right now, we certainly are not. And our FO/RB corporate doesn't seem to mind at all.

This statement is just utter bullshit. Say what you will about the name and logo, most of it is legitimate, but how much more a part of the community do you want the club to be? RB is all over the NY/NJ area, giving funding to parks and youth programs. What other club is donating as much money into their local community as RB is? I don't see the Revs, with their name and logo so rich in tradition donating several thousand dollars to local parks. Please elaborate, how do you want RB to be further involved?
  __    __   ______Spirit_of_96 __ __     _____    
 /_/\  /\_\ /\_____\/\_______)\/_/\__/\  ) ___ (   
 ) ) \/ ( (( (_____/\(___  __\/) ) ) ) )/ /\_/\ \  
/_/ \  / \_\\ \__\    / / /   /_/ /_/_// /_/ (_\ \ 
\ \ \\// / // /__/_  ( ( (    \ \ \ \ \\ \ )_/ / / 
 )_) )( (_(( (_____\  \ \ \    )_) ) \ \\ \/_\/ /  
 \_\/  \/_/ \/_____/  /_/_/    \_\/ \_\/ )_____(   
                   Red Bull Out                                 

#138
onionsack

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And its funny that no one ever mentions the fact that the New York METRO Stars were named after the company that owned them, the METROMedia Corporation!! They weren't named METRO because it's a metropolitan area.



You can feel what you want to feel and call them what you want to call them, but please for the love of God can everyone just please get FACTS straight!!

Metromedia NEVER owned the Metrostars!

Metrostars was an alternative name to the Nike sponsored MetroFlash and had little or nothing to do with a company owned by Kludge and Co. Hell it originally was going to be the Empire Soccer Club. Metro is an extremely common reference to this area, and was not named after Metromedia. That is a myth that is circulated by Red Bull.
RED BULL OUT!!! - True Soccer fans in NY since 2006

#139
NittanyMetros

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Not sure how you think any sport ownership relationship works, but I'd say 99% of the time, the owner is the money man, and they have a staff of people to pay "individual attention" to the club itself.


You're completely wrong here. When it comes to ownership groups, we are the EXCEPTION not the rule. Typically speaking owners in any professional sport own 1 to 2 teams maximum. You can argue all you want about owners not paying individual attention, but you can bet your ass that they are involved in the big decision making when it comes to their team. At worst, at least they show up to a game once in a while.

The Stienbrenners, Prokharov, the Wilpons, and Charles Wang are all involved directly with the teams they own (I leave Dolan out because he is a fucking idiot, not because he isn't involved). Mateschitz has not been to a game since 2006, and that is fucking pathetic. The guy couldn't even get off his ass for a cup final in 2008. And therein lies the problem...NO ONE owns an F1 team, four soccer clubs, a fully functioning extreme sports team and a hockey team (along with a drink, flugtag, air races), and still has the time to pay individual attention to whats going on.

Say what you want about the owners in New York, but they at least are forced to interact with their fanbase and are forced to answer the tough questions when things are going wrong with their respective teams. Every single one of these guys has to answer to the press (in person no less) for the shortcomings of their clubs, for the decisions they make with regards to ticketing, for any PR mishaps they have. Mateschitz? He responds via E-mail from Austria if he responds at all. There's a big fucking difference there, and I think it's one of the reasons we struggle to connect with our community.

Sure, this team is part of a greater marketing strategy, but is that really the worst thing in the world? Would you rather be stuck in a situation like the Revs have, with an owner with shit-tons of cash, yet none for the club? A shitty stadium with no plans in site for a new location? A team in desperate need of rebuilding? A frustrated and dwindling fanbase? They get to keep their name and history, though. (This isn't meant to sound as snotty as it's coming off, but I do legitimately wonder how a team like NE would react to a corporate takeover similar to the RB affair. They could probably use it.)


Tread carefully here. Kraft is a fucking cheapskate, no doubt at all there. However, the Yankees under CBS were also a corporate ownership and that (by all accounts) was a disaster. The Mighty Ducks under Disney (a joke until they were sold) would also fall into this category. MLSE is a corporate owner, and they SUCK too. How you can fuck up hockey in Toronto is beyond me. Time and time again, corporate ownership has failed to deliver when it comes to the sporting landscape. There's a reason for that, and a lot of it falls under the corporate structure you were talking about before.

There will always be bad owners, there will always be idiots to run a team. However, I have yet to see a corporate ownership deliver what is promised to the fans of their respective teams. More often than not, they do not realize that the hands-off approach to ownership has not worked well for a long time. It takes a lot of personal attention to run a professional sports organization, and typically the ones that are successful have owners (or a group of owners) who have a legitimate personal stake in the running of the team.

The marketing situation is definitely a fucking catastrophe, but I doubt anybody who posts on this board is in a position to point blame in any direction with any informed opinion.


I can, it's been right on the head of Andrew LaFiosca. He's been here since 2006 and marketed the drink before the team. We have not had a successful, sustained PR venture in his time here. He is unable to establish market penetration in New York, and is unable to effectively market the club (with all it's stars) to anyone. This is the guy who blew the marketing budget on the one-off game vs. Santos and didn't have a dime to market Thierry Henry and Rafa Marquez because of it.

If you follow this club and have seen the marketing over the years, you'd know the youtube stuff from 2009 was as bad as Metro Playoff Fever.

They didn't have to change the name, but like you said, it's part of a greater marketing strategy. We made a deal with the devil, so to speak. We get the championship team and beautiful stadium, in exchange for the name and logo. I guess I'm just reiterating what we all already know, but again, it's that trade-off. This is the modern world, Redbull aren't a philanthropic group, they're a softdrink megacorporation. They're not just going to donate several hundred million dollars, and keep the team named after another corporation. So it's all about the tradeoff. History and no stadium/no winning team, or Redbull and possibly the best team in league history.


We were never called the New York Metromedia's so your corporate argument does not hold water here. LA Galaxy are not called the LA AEG's. I doubt you would have had the backlash against the team name if they were New York Reds or New York Bulls. However, if you strip the colors, crest, and directly market the team as an extension of your drink (see: Alexi Lalas, corporate shill video) then you would really start to grasp the undertones of what is at play here. This is NOT the modern world, it is the world of Red Bull (in all honesty, I'm not joking either). This is their mission statement and end goal...to have an entire lifestyle brand. 99.99% of the world does not have to exchange a trade-off of the team name and colors to bring a modicum of success. People buy clubs all the time and invest huge sums of money in them, and they do NOT strip the clubs name while doing it. NESV with Liverpool, Abramovich with Chelsea, the Etihad guys with Man City.

This statement is just utter bullshit. Say what you will about the name and logo, most of it is legitimate, but how much more a part of the community do you want the club to be? RB is all over the NY/NJ area, giving funding to parks and youth programs. What other club is donating as much money into their local community as RB is? I don't see the Revs, with their name and logo so rich in tradition donating several thousand dollars to local parks. Please elaborate, how do you want RB to be further involved?


Every sports team in the world has philanthropic ventures associated with it. Charity is not the same as connecting with your city and your fans. To REPRESENT your city and region. Wanna see how it's done right? Look at a Portland Timbers game and they way they marketed the club and it's fans. Right now, the Timbers are the heart beat of that city.

#RedBullOut


#140
SimonSays

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NO ONE owns an F1 team, four soccer clubs, a fully functioning extreme sports team and a hockey team (along with a drink, flugtag, air races), and still has the time to pay individual attention to whats going on.

Two F1 teams. And a NASCAR team too.

I can, it's been right on the head of Andrew LaFiosca.

As I've written before, I'd also assign some responsibility to Red Bull's general marketing strategy, which deemphasizes traditional advertising in an attempt to manufacture a perceived grassroots authenticity that appears to spread largely through word of mouth. Saturating the market with billboards, TV commercials and print ads would endanger that authenticity in the eyes of the lifestyle brand's target market. So as long as we're owned by a corporation trying to manufacture a lifestyle brand targeted at an "alternative," "counterculture" or "underground" demographic, I think we can expect our marketing budget to stay pretty much where it is.

99.99% of the world does not have to exchange a trade-off of the team name and colors to bring a modicum of success. People buy clubs all the time and invest huge sums of money in them, and they do NOT strip the clubs name while doing it. NESV with Liverpool, Abramovich with Chelsea, the Etihad guys with Man City.

This is the essential response to the "deal with the devil" fallacy. Just because our old management ran this team into the ground does not mean Red Bull offered the only road to salvation. As the Galaxy, Salt Lake, Portland, Seattle and countless teams in every sport around the world prove, on-field success and a great stadium are perfectly reasonable expectations even without a corporate patron.


Every sports team in the world has philanthropic ventures associated with it. Charity is not the same as connecting with your city and your fans. To REPRESENT your city and region. Wanna see how it's done right? Look at a Portland Timbers game and they way they marketed the club and it's fans. Right now, the Timbers are the heart beat of that city.

Red Bull has no interest in culturally representing our region--it's intrinsically contrary to the idea of a global brand selling a global identity. They give every team in every city in every sport the same name, jersey and logo because, as a lifestyle brand, they want Red Bull to evoke ideas that exist independent of place--adventurousness, globetrotting, being "extreme"--and they want those ideas to be linked with their logo in consumers' heads no matter where they are in the world. It's a goal that's necessarily mutally exclusive with representing an individual community, because the latter requires compromising the resonance of your brand outside of the represented market.

The Yankees--for all their global recognition--are tied to New York so profoundly, representing the memories and lived experiences of their fans, that their cultural imagery can never be as powerful for those in San Francisco or Chicago (or, for that matter, in Leipzig or Salzburg) as it is for those of us who grew up with them in New York. The Yankees name will always evoke the skyline and Sinatra--Red Bull only wants to evoke a set of abstract lifestyle values that mean the same thing to every 18-to-35-year-old male on Earth.
FORZA ROSSONERI

#141
Jeremy Thunder

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Let it be known, by the way, that I am not a fan of being called the Red Bulls. Let it also be known that I was quite drunk when I wrote all of that.

As far as cultural connection, and representation, what option are we left with right now? Are you going to jump ship and go to Cosmos country? That's a team with history, and a cultural connection to New York.
  __    __   ______Spirit_of_96 __ __     _____    
 /_/\  /\_\ /\_____\/\_______)\/_/\__/\  ) ___ (   
 ) ) \/ ( (( (_____/\(___  __\/) ) ) ) )/ /\_/\ \  
/_/ \  / \_\\ \__\    / / /   /_/ /_/_// /_/ (_\ \ 
\ \ \\// / // /__/_  ( ( (    \ \ \ \ \\ \ )_/ / / 
 )_) )( (_(( (_____\  \ \ \    )_) ) \ \\ \/_\/ /  
 \_\/  \/_/ \/_____/  /_/_/    \_\/ \_\/ )_____(   
                   Red Bull Out                                 

#142
SimonSays

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Let it be known, by the way, that I am not a fan of being called the Red Bulls. Let it also be known that I was quite drunk when I wrote all of that.

:cheers:

As far as cultural connection, and representation, what option are we left with right now? Are you going to jump ship and go to Cosmos country? That's a team with history, and a cultural connection to New York.

It's a good question. The Cosmos are not an option, because I do have genuine allegiances to the players, the supporters groups and the memories, which is what the idea of "Metro" means to me. Barring a fundamental shift in corporate strategy, I think we're going to have to live with this level of marketing and community engagement for as long as Red Bull is around, since they're not symptoms of ineptitude but rather deliberate components of the Red Bull master plan. I deal with that by doing my best to be content with things as they are, since it's still damn fun to go to games and stand in the South Ward, but the knowledge that we are stagnant at a time when the league and sport are growing is still upsetting. I'm not sure what the long term answer is--maybe we have to take publicity and community-building into our own hands under the Metro banner.
FORZA ROSSONERI

#143
onionsack

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I'm not sure what the long term answer is--maybe we have to take publicity and community-building into our own hands under the Metro banner.


In many ways we already have. Outside a few massive widescale efforts which require large scale budgets, th e bulk of the publicity and community efforts have been born out of the fans. Youtube videos, photos of the SGs', advertising pre and post game places to commingle, getting exposure at many pubs and soccer publications in the area and the coveted word of mouth.

But you find that in every MLS market going back for years so....
RED BULL OUT!!! - True Soccer fans in NY since 2006

#144
Thomas A Fina

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I can, it's been right on the head of Andrew LaFiosca. He's been here since 2006 and marketed the drink before the team. We have not had a successful, sustained PR venture in his time here. He is unable to establish market penetration in New York, and is unable to effectively market the club (with all it's stars) to anyone. This is the guy who blew the marketing budget on the one-off game vs. Santos and didn't have a dime to market Thierry Henry and Rafa Marquez because of it.


Disagree inasmuch as while obviously he has made some crap decisions, the root cause is sitting in Austria right now caring about anything else other than the fact they don't care that they can only get 15k.

I just get so angry and frustrated at the uselessness of it all

#145
SimonSays

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In many ways we already have. Outside a few massive widescale efforts which require large scale budgets, th e bulk of the publicity and community efforts have been born out of the fans. Youtube videos, photos of the SGs', advertising pre and post game places to commingle, getting exposure at many pubs and soccer publications in the area and the coveted word of mouth.

But you find that in every MLS market going back for years so....


Good point--I don't want to in any way discount the work that's already been done by extraordinarily devoted fans. I was talking more about finding a way to undertake some of those "massive widescale efforts" that really should be the FOs responsibility--things like going door-to-door in the Ironbound, blanketing the city with stickers and flyers, dropping banners in lieu of billboards, etc. Just an idle suggestion--not at all saying that we should have been doing those things. It's sad that we even have to discuss it.
FORZA ROSSONERI

#146
TimKlotz

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If anyone's problem with the branding or name is that strong, start a lower-division team and call Metro FC or something. Won't run more than 50-70k per year. Split that a few hundred ways and it's still less than a season ticket to RBNY. That's what SV Austria Salzburg supporters did, but they also had generations of history behind their club. Dead ancestors who passed the torch. Metro had 10 years in a hand-egg stadium.

Like Amos said, I support the team that represents my area, but I would actually like to see a fan-owned/operated team.
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#147
The Metrologist

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If anyone's problem with the branding or name is that strong, start a lower-division team and call Metro FC or something. Won't run more than 50-70k per year.


Stop being ridiculous.
No one makes TV commercials to get people to look at their billboards.

#148
thecoffeecake

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Good point--I don't want to in any way discount the work that's already been done by extraordinarily devoted fans. I was talking more about finding a way to undertake some of those "massive widescale efforts" that really should be the FOs responsibility--things like going door-to-door in the Ironbound, blanketing the city with stickers and flyers, dropping banners in lieu of billboards, etc. Just an idle suggestion--not at all saying that we should have been doing those things. It's sad that we even have to discuss it.

I agree with you 1000%. We're starting this down here in Ocean County with USPS stickers. I also completely agree that RB has zero intention of connecting with the local communities. The SG's need to be the brand we spread around, maybe it's a blessing in disguise that RB marketing doesn't do anything. That's our opportunity to give the fans a Metro view of the team. Only thing RB about the team would be the shirts. Stickers, flyers, banners people see everyday would be red black and yellow and would say "METRO". In my opinion, NYC is all but a lost cause if the Cosmos enter the league, we need to embrace a Newark identity. This is Brick City!
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#149
Calpico

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In my opinion, NYC is all but a lost cause if the Cosmos enter the league, we need to embrace a Newark identity. This is Brick City!


Most of my friends are drunks here in NYC and will embrace the Newark identity. Just talk to people about how cheap beer is in Newark.
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