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Hot and Kassel cut


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#226
BlancDaBody

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You seem to forget that we are dealing with Peter Vermes who at the 2010 draft seriously offered RBNY absolutely nothing for Tim Ream's pick. He didn't even offer the proverbial "bag of balls." He offered nothing. If he offered anything at all for Hot, it probably would have been another scrub player and where would that get RBNY? Nowhere. At least the $70k allocation is something we can use.


Soler basically saying the same shit here:

"We need to be a top team in this league," Soler said. "We need to win titles. We're constantly under pressure. We have to balance that with the fact that we like young talent to play. There is simply not enough space for everybody to succeed."

http://www.bigapples...rticle_id=29839

It's obvious that Soler wanted allocation $$$ to flip those spots into dependable players somewhere down the line. They want their young players to get actually get run in their system. Those two were NOT going to play here. It's not a tough decision to defend TBH.

I seriously doubt Vermes was really going to give up much of anything useful to us for Hot - We would have taken it - (See: Jeremy Hall, Austin da Luz etc.) Let's stop acting like we just cut Tom Seaver, please.
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#227
Voice of Reason II

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"Vermes and his staff were tabbed to lead the Generation adidas tour of the Netherlands, and Hot would be attending.

"We had a good camp," Hot recalled. "I played well over there and they heard about my situation in New York, and they wanted to trade for me. It didn't happen, so Peter told my agent that if anything ever happens to me, he wanted to know know right away."

Ouch.

One of my criticisms of Soler is that he has been too easy in trade negotiations with other MLS teams, too transperent about his intentions. If Vermes had actually made a bid it would be entirely out of character for Soler not to have agreed to it. My bet is that either Vermes didn't make an offer, or it was so worthless that it was better to see how Hot was doing relative to other trialists before making a move.

Also, I must assume that Hot could only have known about this through Soler, otherwise it would be deemed tampering.

#228
elf

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One of my criticisms of Soler is that he has been too easy in trade negotiations with other MLS teams, too transperent about his intentions. If Vermes had actually made a bid it would be entirely out of character for Soler not to have agreed to it. My bet is that either Vermes didn't make an offer, or it was so worthless that it was better to see how Hot was doing relative to other trialists before making a move.

Also, I must assume that Hot could only have known about this through Soler, otherwise it would be deemed tampering.


What did you want from KC? a scrub that will not make KC's team? or a supplemental pick? there was no way KC was going to give away allocation.

The best thing for Hot and Kassel was for RBNY to release them instead of pigeonholing them into a team for a player that was not going to make it at RBNY.

#229
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What did you want from KC? a scrub that will not make KC's team? or a supplemental pick? there was no way KC was going to give away allocation.

Who says it was a supplemental pick? Wouldn't put it past being a second rounder... As worthless as our current regime thinks they are, our possible starting goalkeeper was just acquired with one.

Still, a supplemental pick is better than NOTHING.
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#230
Voice of Reason II

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What did you want from KC? a scrub that will not make KC's team? or a supplemental pick? there was no way KC was going to give away allocation.

The best thing for Hot and Kassel was for RBNY to release them instead of pigeonholing them into a team for a player that was not going to make it at RBNY.

Where did I say what I wanted?

#231
cBr

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One of my criticisms of Soler is that he has been too easy in trade negotiations with other MLS teams



so fucken true. He was tossing around Ream allocation cash for Cooper and Conde when the fact is that Portland and Chicago didnt want Cooper and Conde. He had the leverage. We let Houston have Hunter Freeman for free when he came back to MLS...do you think any other team would have let that happen?

5 year plan


#232
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Also, I must assume that Hot could only have known about this through Soler, otherwise it would be deemed tampering.

It could have been Vermes telling Hot that after he aquired him - make the kid feel more welcome and valued than just a pickup off the scrap heap.

Anyway, it is so absurd to think that teams were trying to trade for him, but we decided to give him away for nothing. Its one thing for Soler to get played or be soft, and it certainly has seemed to happen on occassion - its another to be completely irrational. We're not getting the whole story. Sometimes that stuff will happen when you are dealing with a closing trade window and you just run out of time, but that wasn't the case here.

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#233
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It could have been Vermes telling Hot that after he aquired him. Anyway, it is so absurd to think that teams were trying to trade for him, but we decided to give him away for nothing. Its one thing for Soler to get played or be soft, its another to be completely irrational. We're not getting the whole story. Sometimes that stuff will happen when you are dealing with a closing trade window and you just run out of time, but that wasn;t the case here.

Then Hot should have said they "tried" to trade for me, not "wanted".

And when does anyone ever get the whole story?

#234
JayDelight729

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Corey makes a valid point, but I see where others are going with this too.

All Soler & Co. had to do was say "Hot and Kassel are not in our first team plans." and move on.

Creating multiple excuses just makes you look foolish. Have one reason and stick with it. People may not like that reason, but they can respect that you make a firm decision without looking back.

Personally, I don't see how either makes a valuable impact on the field when they are at best a 4th option in a given position. Moving forward RBNY needs to be smarter with its homegrown signings. At least Connor Lade provides depth in a thin position. He appears to be a primary backup. To bring in academy kids just to say we signed local players (its happened throughout MLS), was the thing to do the last year or so as every team wanted to claim to have signed local players.

This offseason alone, Houston, RSL, NY, and Vancouver have released homegrown players. And I'm sure Dallas and Toronto will do so at some point due to the large number of future homegrowns on the roster. Only a matter of time.

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#235
RedBullScouse

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Then Hot should have said they "tried" to trade for me, not "wanted".

And when does anyone ever get the whole story?

I think you are asking too much nuance from a very young mans vocabulary. While we never get the whole story, it never seems to stop anyone here from acting as if they do.

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#236
GMoney

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This offseason alone, Houston, RSL, NY, and Vancouver have released homegrown players. And I'm sure Dallas and Toronto will do so at some point due to the large number of future homegrowns on the roster. Only a matter of time.


I'm feeling your point. Especially, about making up multiple reasons. Just lacks in transparency and avoids building trust.


My big question now is, "What is the point of Academies?' Seems like they're a waste and should maybe disband. If teams aren't getting 1st team players, there is a big cost associated. Just a big money and resource loser.

Seems to me, the ONLY reason to have a local academy is to trap a young US Nats player that just happens to live in your area.

Teams aren't going to invest in developing anyone else....even with a 30 man roster. Remember, the excuse used to be that the rosters were too small and MLS teams couldn't carry develepmental prospects. Now, that's not an excuse and MLS teams are still not carrying young Academy players to develop.

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#237
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We let Houston have Hunter Freeman for free when he came back to MLS...do you think any other team would have let that happen?

Not true.

Red Bull New York announced today that it has acquired allocation money from the Houston Dynamo in exchange for New York's natural 2012 third round MLS SuperDraft pick and the rights to defender Hunter Freeman.

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#238
Voice of Reason II

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Corey makes a valid point, but I see where others are going with this too.

All Soler & Co. had to do was say "Hot and Kassel are not in our first team plans." and move on.

Creating multiple excuses just makes you look foolish. Have one reason and stick with it. People may not like that reason, but they can respect that you make a firm decision without looking back.

Personally, I don't see how either makes a valuable impact on the field when they are at best a 4th option in a given position. Moving forward RBNY needs to be smarter with its homegrown signings. At least Connor Lade provides depth in a thin position. He appears to be a primary backup. To bring in academy kids just to say we signed local players (its happened throughout MLS), was the thing to do the last year or so as every team wanted to claim to have signed local players.

This offseason alone, Houston, RSL, NY, and Vancouver have released homegrown players. And I'm sure Dallas and Toronto will do so at some point due to the large number of future homegrowns on the roster. Only a matter of time.

MLS just operates so differently than other soccer leagues that it creates lots of challenges. We need at least one, if not more than one bona fide 2nd tier league where promising, but not yet ready for tier one players can go to get regular playing time, where the MLS team can keep some kind of skin in the game and have a vested interest in those players developing. While we currently have more leagues, there is no unified structure, no easy way to keep the best players involved. The NFL, NBA and NHL don't need that because they are the destination league. MLB has the farm team system. Euro soccer leagues use promotion/relegation and extensive loaning to manage this. I think MLS will eventually find a better mechanism, but I won't hold my breath. I just don't think 10 reserve matches are enough to keep these guys developing.

#239
JayDelight729

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It is kind of sad that SolerBacke don't value the MLS Draft despite the fact they generated a multi million dollar sale in Tim Ream and perhaps their starting goalkeeper from the draft in just the past couple seasons.

But... we can't say they haven't had success on the international front. Joel Lindpere, Luke Rodgers, and DJ Solli all have come in and exceeded expectations.

Teemu Tainio is important as well, but injuries are a concern. Roy Miller has done better than most people give him credit for.

The problem isn't the team's individual talent level. Anyone who spends enough time around soccer can see individually that this team has one of the best collections of individual talent in the league. The problem in my eyes is lack of team speed in the middle of the field. It's glaring as other team's forwards are able to beat our defenders with pace.

"Obviously, I want to make a living (in soccer), to say the least," he said. "There's so much you can accomplish in the soccer world, and right now I'm focused on having a good season with the Red Bulls. Ultimately, our goal is to win the MLS Cup, and I see no reason why we can't." - #4 Tyler Adams


#240
jamison

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Are you kidding?


Why would I be kidding? Those are all sentiments expressed by other people, not by me. I'm just saying let's pick one story & stick to it, instead of jumping from lily pad to lily pad.

a) None of those things are mutually exclusive. They could all be true, and part of the story.


And, as always with MLS, it would be nice if we got the full story. In all seriousness, it would be cool to have Brian Lewis or someone just straight up ask Soler if he tried to shop Hot & Kassel before letting them go. I hope to god the answer is yes. I would feel foolish as a fan of this team if it was no, but, I accept both answers as being possible. What gives me the giggles is reading people who are convinced it was not possible, with no one apparently having asked Soler the question first, because that's the only answer that supports the orthodoxy. Any adult can surely see the comedy there.

For the record, no, I don't take "Peter Vermes as told to someone by Sacir Hot" as gospel. Sacir could be completely making this up.

Which kind of gets to my point; it's sad that people try to twist themselves into pretzels to explain how something that may or may not be true is somehow guaranteed to not be true, because they want to defend RB. I'm not an anti-RB hater, I just think it's fair to ask some questions of the team now & again. Their record has good moves, and bad ones. I'm not sure why being in the middle is a position viewed by some as having a negative, anti-RB bias. Just don't accept the logic. I should be able to treat this team the same way I treat the Yankees (a team that also makes good roster moves, and also makes bad ones), and we should be allowed to honestly discuss the off-field wins & losses.

Why do you think they were cut? Because our tyrannical Austrian soft-drink overlords took a break from killing puppies in the name of creating the dreaded lifestyle brand long enough to pass down order to the Hans that he had too many brilliant prospects on the team, and 'we wouldn't want this team winning would we?' Hans of course was more than willing to oblige, as he hates young players, and American players (on top of his already known hatred of Central American and African players), so he fired them.


That is a 100% bullshit strawman, and you know it. I don't give a shit about the soda can. It's about Hans & Soler, and our direction going forward. I never once brought up Austria, don't try to make everyone who asks a question into Harraby. First, it makes you look like a clown. Second, it wastes all of our time. Aspire to be better than that.

The kids weren't up to snuff,


Perfectly reasonable explanation....

we couldn't get a better deal than the allocation they free up


An assumption that you have convinced yourself is true and I am merely asking for some reporter to confirm. Don't really see the harm in that, and, say what you want, it doesn't make me a hater of Hans & Soler. Just someone who asks the question, without believing whatever must be true to keep us feeling warm & fuzzy without getting confirmation one way or the other. Is it really blasphemy to ask a question? This is a soccer team, not North Korean state television.

so now they're fucking gone. End of story. Believe me, I'm sad too. I'd love to see more Agudelos, young local kids coming through our academy then kicking ass in the league, but to make an omelet you've gotta break some eggs. The kids weren't going to make it, and that's it.


Again, kind of a 50/50. Time will tell if the $ 70k in allocation turned out to be worth it, if Hot/Kassel turned into anything, etc. I certainly don't have the answer on whether this was good or bad yet. Like most things, it'll take years to tell, just as it did with others similarly let go years ago under non-Backe/Soler regimes (who- believe it or not- I do give equal blame to for doing this).

I do not, for the record, think we cut Tom Seaver, etc. It' not about Kassel & Hot, per se, though I think we gave up on them too soon. They are kids, some turn out, some don't, I get it. If they were both Tim Ream/Joel Lindpere they'd still be here, I can live with that (Bizarre Ballouchy roster love aside). There are some obvious paths that we could have chosen in exchange for the one we took (give them playing time in USL, or trade them) but we took $ 35k each in allocation & moved on. I understand that they are gone, I agree that we should all move forward. We can all agree to let Omelets be bygones or whatever.

But our team, going back to 1996 or something very like it, has made a history out of being poor managers of our young talent. We are repeating that again. It's the strategy that's the issue, not player X, not coach Y, not owner Z. I'm not attacking Soler/Backe for the sake of attacking them; I am amused, however, by those who seem determined to defending them at all costs.

That's how we end up with lily pads.

 





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