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North Korean leader Kim Jong Il dead, state media reports


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#46
metro bomaye!

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What's the point? He provides a source and you say, "Capitalist media" or "Capitalist Imperialist Rootin' Tootin' Study done by Fat Greedy Corporate Pigs."

This goes on in a circle infinitely. We get it. Communist countries do not wrong.

The UN isn't always so bad, which is why I asked for the source in the first place. Regardless, I think it borders on denial to think that there isn't a clear anti-DPRK slant in a lot of "studies". If FOX News says the DPRK is some big bad dictatorship I'm not entirely inclined to believe them, and the exact same goes for Freedom House and the like.

The slant is nothing new: as just one example of many, Robert Conquest was taken seriously by historians even though he used fictional novels (no, really, works of fiction) to support his view of the purges. The last decade and a half have seen his works exposed as the nonsense they always were (J Arch Getty is just one of the historians responsible for this much-needed reappraisal), but then again the damage was already done; the Cold War was "won" by Conquest's invasion-happy friends, and the people of former socialist Europe have nothing to show for this "victory" but an unparalleled decline in living standards and a handful of genocides generously funded by imperialism. This is part-and-parcel of a media that never really questioned Bush's case for destroying Iraq or Obama's case for bombing Libya, heaped praise upon hateful hacks such as Huntington or Hitchens and actually gave Glenn Beck of all people a podium for his abject lunacy. Yes, I will certainly call such portions of the media capitalist, and more importantly I will call them notoriously unreliable. I see absolutely no reason why I should do otherwise.

tl;dr...imperialists are usually liars, especially when it comes to socialism.

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#47
metro bomaye!

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From July, 2011:

In the late 1990s the total collapse of the North's food distribution system led to the deaths of up to a million people, and the refugees say the signs of a repeat disaster are now appearing.

If people recall, I stated that the famines of the 90's are hopefully behind them. That's really what's being echoed here. The DPRK is doing what it can, promoting investment from foreign firms is just one part of this. However, the "mismanagement" that some speak of is really the result of desperation measures in the 90's: farming on hillsides which would eventually cause erosion was an option forced upon the people of the DPRK because very little of their land is arable (14% IIRC). If one was to cut off trade to the UK (which imports 40% of its food) the consequences would be similar if not worse.

By the by, the picture in the article (a woman setting up a basic stand to sell things) can be found just about everywhere in the developing world.

It's notable that the UN doesn't cite U.S. sanctions as one of the causes of North Korea's current food shortage.

This from the Voice of America, of all sources:

Economists say new sanctions imposed by South Korea against North Korea are likely to worsen the country's fragile economy. The United States has also announced a new round of financial sanctions, in part to attempt to further restrict funding and proliferation of North Korea's weapons programs.

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#48
Did I Do That?

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This is part-and-parcel of a media that never really questioned Bush's case for destroying Iraq or Obama's case for bombing Libya, heaped praise upon hateful hacks such as Huntington or Hitchens and actually gave Glenn Beck of all people a podium for his abject lunacy. Yes, I will certainly call such portions of the media capitalist, and more importantly I will call them notoriously unreliable. I see absolutely no reason why I should do otherwise.

tl;dr...imperialists are usually liars, especially when it comes to socialism.

1) I can agree with you that the media is either lazy or afraid to question authority.
2) No need to tl;dr for my benefit.

#49
metros11

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Regardless, I think it borders on denial to think that there isn't a clear anti-DPRK slant in a lot of "studies".

I find this ironic. I don't have to explain how, do I?

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#50
metro bomaye!

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1) I can agree with you that the media is either lazy or afraid to question authority.
2) No need to tl;dr for my benefit.

1) Exactly, and a consequence of that is the old "Axis of Evil" rhetoric gets parroted by much of the media. Most unfortunately, "common knowledge" of the matter then becomes shaped by this laziness combined with absurdist Hollywood sensationalism (like when 007 tries to stop DPRK officials from trading conflict diamonds when in reality the people gleefully trading conflict diamonds are the same ones denouncing the DPRK as a "cruel dictatorship"). I concede there are pressing issues facing the people of the DPRK, but no one should wildly claim that there is mass starvation when there isn't hard evidence for it.

2) OK, noted. I wasn't trying to be condescending or anything and my apologies if it was taken that way, but it's just that I've heard from some here that my posts can be too long....

I find this ironic. I don't have to explain how, do I?

I am loathe to assume, so please do explain.

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#51
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I may have to check in this case, but US embargoes are extraterritorial, which means that any business that does business with a sanctioned country is denied trade with the US. I'm fairly certain that's the case here, and it's a strong influence for a lot of firms who are forced to choose between the US market and investing in the DPRK. But as we can see here, the DPRK does want to open up and promote investment.


You're talking smaller businesses in both countries, not multi-national corporations. Chinese businessmen are starting to transport basic goods into North Korea, but it's occuring at a snail's pace. It's tougher for South Korean businesses to set up shop in North Korea (Kaesong Industrial Region) because of the sanctions, but North Korea should still not be in such a state. Signing the pipeline deal with Russia was a good start (I'm not sure how this got around sanctions as Gazprom are a huge fucking multi-national corporation, but it got signed), but considering North Korea's Songun (Military First) policy, I don't think it will do much good for the average person.


Well we can't know for sure, but all I'm saying is that I don't think the guy wouldn't make such a statement spuriously. Others can disagree, but I think he had solid foundation for the claim.


I'm sure North Korea does have some hospitals that the developing world are jealous of, but I doubt their entire medical system is.

As for Pyongyang, that's not much different from other countries where the capital is far and away the most important city. For example, a country like Azerbaijan has Baku which is becoming a major regional hub and then...not much after that. It's only natural that the same might occur in the DPRK.


Kaesong has only recently become more developed (tourism and the industrial site), and some border towns are becoming richer (perhaps as rich as Pyongyang) due to trade with China, but in terms of infrastructure and such, all of that money goes to Pyongyang. It's like if our federal government decided to get rid of Anacostia and make D.C. some sort of government paradise that only the elites could live in.
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#52
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You're talking smaller businesses in both countries, not multi-national corporations. Chinese businessmen are starting to transport basic goods into North Korea, but it's occuring at a snail's pace. It's tougher for South Korean businesses to set up shop in North Korea (Kaesong Industrial Region) because of the sanctions, but North Korea should still not be in such a state. Signing the pipeline deal with Russia was a good start (I'm not sure how this got around sanctions as Gazprom are a huge fucking multi-national corporation, but it got signed), but considering North Korea's Songun (Military First) policy, I don't think it will do much good for the average person.

True, and the smaller businesses are a positive step IMO, but larger businesses would be able to bring more investment to the country. The pipeline should do a lot for the average DPRK citizen...just because the DPRK puts emphasis on self-defense (and who can really blame them when they're facing down the US, which has a military expenditure that about equals the rest of the world combined) doesn't mean it's not going to affect the people.

I'm sure North Korea does have some hospitals that the developing world are jealous of, but I doubt their entire medical system is.

Understood, but I still take his word for it.

Kaesong has only recently become more developed (tourism and the industrial site), and some border towns are becoming richer (perhaps as rich as Pyongyang) due to trade with China, but in terms of infrastructure and such, all of that money goes to Pyongyang. It's like if our federal government decided to get rid of Anacostia and make D.C. some sort of government paradise that only the elites could live in.

Many more people than "elites" (whoever they may be) live in Pyongyang. As I said, the DPRK is such that one major urban center makes most sense. You wouldn't criticize Estonia just because Tallinn is far and away the most important city in the country (IIRC the only mall in the whole country is there), so why criticize the DPRK for the same?

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#53
Calpico

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True, and the smaller businesses are a positive step IMO, but larger businesses would be able to bring more investment to the country. The pipeline should do a lot for the average DPRK citizen...just because the DPRK puts emphasis on self-defense (and who can really blame them when they're facing down the US, which has a military expenditure that about equals the rest of the world combined) doesn't mean it's not going to affect the people.


Songun = Military Keynesianism which is a failed ideology. Most countries only spend a fraction of their GDP on defense.

Many more people than "elites" (whoever they may be) live in Pyongyang. As I said, the DPRK is such that one major urban center makes most sense. You wouldn't criticize Estonia just because Tallinn is far and away the most important city in the country (IIRC the only mall in the whole country is there), so why criticize the DPRK for the same?


Because if you get on the bad side of the regime you're kicked out of the city. It steals wealth from the rest of the country to fund it's lavishness, much like Washington DC. Tallinn functions both as a financial hub and capital. Pyongyang does not. Most of the wealth produced in the country comes from Kaesong, Chinese border towns, and the mining areas.


Great article by Andrei Lankov on the future of North Korea: LINK
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#54
JBigjake54

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Zombie thread revival time?
https://nypost.com/2...red-to-be-dead/
Where has metro bomaye! been?

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#55
JBigjake54

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Cryptic update:
https://nypost.com/2...g-uns-location/
https://nypost.com/2...d-death-rumors/

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#56
sabremike

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He's now practicing good social distancing, but instead of being 6 feet away from everyone he is 6 feet beneath them.
Let's Go Buffalo!!!

#57
JBigjake54

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Not as dead as we thought?
https://nypost.com/2...-mark-on-wrist/

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#58
JBigjake54

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More plot twists?
https://nypost.com/2...e-body-doubles/

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#59
JBigjake54

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The Worm thinks Kim is OK, has happy memories: https://www.google.c...im-jong-un/amp/
The rest of us have no idea what is going on in NK:
https://nypost.com/2...zergnet_5210298

We are good enough to beat the best teams, and bad enough to lose to the worst teams. 





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