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Chicago won the Dax trade, alright


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#106
defendyourself

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Using your own $20 comparison, if you had $20 and traded/soled something to get $20 more, then you go and buy something cheap for a couple of bucks, how can you claim that you only could get it because of that trade you made for extra $20? That's Escobar and Murillo. They are cheap prospect players you could have had with existing money anyway. And Fred for Demari is not a wash, Demari was over a mil and a half, Fred is 360. We had some money under cap, which is why we were able to give people raises, get prospects AND (and this is the key part) get expensive players like Fred and Keita. That last part was unnecessary and close to Dax's allocation money. Subtract Keita and Fred, and you could have still had Dax today.

 

On your other point, BWP and Sacha are not getting any younger. People are dumping on Dax's age, well he is two years younger than these guys. You can't just waste a year by giving away top 3 guy to another team for nothing of value in return in 2017 when they only have just a few left in the tank. Sacha and BWP already declined this year, especially Sacha. Do you think they will get any better next year. By subtracting a Dax caliber player and getting nothing in return we blew it, as simple as that. And this is after we already lost another solid starter in Duvall. The problem is, Keita and Fred G are not the answer. Veron is already better than these guys, and even he does not get enough PT. This was just a disastrous move by the team, as simple as that.

you have a significantly different understanding of how the cap works in MLS so I will stop beating the dead horse for my sanity.

Also very few people disagree with you that the move made us worse this year based on who they obtained.  But because the allocation money from dax deal is split over two years, no one really knows if next year they will get something that makes it worth it or if any of the players we signed this year pan out and make us a better team.  We basically all agree that trade moreorless was fine, asset acquisition/retention after trade questionable.   



#107
Borats

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All 3 of Sasha, Dax and Felipe were on the trading block.

The goal is MLS Cup.

I dont think the question is wether the trade was a good one for us. It freed up space for Adams/Davis which I approve of.

The question I think is wether we sent the right guy out of those 3 to Chicago. Because we saw all the same flaws with this team on Monday night. That is either a problem with the veteran talent still on this team or the manager. Or both.

In my opinion Jesse and Sasha need to go to Toronto and prove that THEY are not the problem with this teams repeated big game failings the past 3 years.

This entire post season is a referendum on everyone who has been a major part of the past 3 years.

Listen to this: https://www.mlssocce...incos-free-kick

 

Talking about free kick and how typically it is Dax who runs to the post on time to block that spot, instead of Murillo who got there late. He could have played alongside Adams, while benching Davis, who had very up and down season and would get plenty of minutes off the bench anyway throughout the season instead of guys like Mule and sometimes Zizzo.



#108
defendyourself

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Listen to this: https://www.mlssocce...incos-free-kick

 

Talking about free kick and how typically it is Dax who runs to the post on time to block that spot, instead of Murillo who got there late. He could have played alongside Adams, while benching Davis, who had very up and down season and would get plenty of minutes off the bench anyway throughout the season instead of guys like Mule and sometimes Zizzo.

While Dax is better than Davis in an isolated sense, Davis >>> Dax/Felipe/basically all other options we have at the tucked in winger position we play him in now.  

So sure Dax may have got there but there is another guy who should have got there.  his name is Luis Robles and he is paid at almost TAM levels.  Got to make the save.



#109
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you have a significantly different understanding of how the cap works in MLS so I will stop beating the dead horse for my sanity.

Also very few people disagree with you that the move made us worse this year based on who they obtained.  But because the allocation money from dax deal is split over two years, no one really knows if next year they will get something that makes it worth it or if any of the players we signed this year pan out and make us a better team.  We basically all agree that trade moreorless was fine, asset acquisition/retention after trade questionable.   

I am not sure about significantly different understanding of the CAP. I do not know about every CAP trick in the book (and I am sure there are many), but do you generally agree that had we not signed expensive players Keita and Fred we could have kept Dax?

 

On the trade value, how can you say it is fine when you give the team their 3d best player, NT player over several years, including this year (not the starter, but at least made roster, which is not easy), MLS all star, not over the hill (29 going on 30, which is 2 years younger than your own best players that have just a few years left of top performance) while getting nothing concrete back? That "asset acquisition/retention after trade" is the critical point here. On the money you got in this trade, Messi will not be coming over. Guys like Damari, Fred, Keita is what's expected. Dax is in essence the best you can realistically get for this money. When you give him away, you'd better get a player back that's just as good or you've been had. Unfortunately the later is what happened to us, while Chicago got their top 3 guy and significantly improved.



#110
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While Dax is better than Davis in an isolated sense, Davis >>> Dax/Felipe/basically all other options we have at the tucked in winger position we play him in now.  

So sure Dax may have got there but there is another guy who should have got there.  his name is Luis Robles and he is paid at almost TAM levels.  Got to make the save.

While Dax is better than Davis in an isolated sense, Davis >>> Dax/Felipe/basically all other options we have at the tucked in winger position we play him in now.  

So sure Dax may have got there but there is another guy who should have got there.  his name is Luis Robles and he is paid at almost TAM levels.  Got to make the save.

It's the job of the coach to make the best formation given the roster. Dax is significantly better than Davis, and Marsch would make adjustment having a much better player on the team. And he could still use Davis off the bench. Let's not start the argument now how not having a really good player is better than having him.

 

As far as Robles, I couldn't agree more. He basically gave away two goals because he was so scared of Giovinko. First goal he stated that the reason he did not push the ball to the side is because he saw SG there, covered by Adams. He wasn't open, but his presence alone made Robles push the ball to the middle, which is absolute no no. On the second goal, he was worried about protecting GK side and basically outsourced wide side to Murillo, which was pathetic. Granted SG is good at free kicks, but he only has 9% conversion rate in last 150 kicks (and lower before that). That means you still got 91% odds in your favor, which is overwhelmingly good. And Robles simply panicked and made idiotic mistake. It wouldn't hurt to have Dax there to fix it though.



#111
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#112
defendyourself

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It's the job of the coach to make the best formation given the roster. Dax is significantly better than Adams, and Marsch would make adjustment having a much better player on the team. And he could still use Davis off the bench. Let's not start the argument now how not having a really good player is better than having him.

 

As far as Robles, I couldn't agree more. He basically gave away two goals because he was so scared of Giovinko. First goal he stated that the reason he did not push the ball to the side is because he saw SG there, covered by Adams. He wasn't open, but his presence alone made Robles push the ball to the middle, which is absolute no no. On the second goal, he was worried about protecting GK side and basically outsourced wide side to Murillo, which was pathetic. Granted SG is good at free kicks, but he only has 9% conversion rate in last 150 kicks (and lower before that). That means you still got 91% odds in your favor, which is overwhelmingly good. And Robles simply panicked and made idiotic mistake. It wouldn't hurt to have Dax there to fix it though.

Paragraph 1: RBNY could have used Dax salary savings to either give people extentions/raises or sign Keita/Freddy G./pay loan/transfer fees no one knows which one they would have chose not to do if they did not sign Dax besides Denis and Jesse.  What I was mentioning in cap is that comparing Damari and Freddy G salaries is not really the cap space saved, it was ability to move Sacha to DP slot and then saving his cap hit and TAM used to bring it down. Its stuff like that, that i would rather not dive into but some of it is speculated in a cap situation thread we have deep somewhere, so its not as cut and dry as it initially appears.

 

Paragraph 2: You lost me at Dax being significantly better than Adams.  That is not true anymore and will not be true for the rest of Dax's career in all probability. 

 

Also Dax trade saved 700k this year and another 700k next year in cap + allocation. Dani Royer costs ~ 450k. You are telling me if we signed a second Dani Royer instead of Freddy G with the money we wouldn't be a better team? and still have 250k left to get a defender.



#113
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Listen to this: https://www.mlssocce...incos-free-kick

 

Talking about free kick and how typically it is Dax who runs to the post on time to block that spot, instead of Murillo who got there late. He could have played alongside Adams, while benching Davis, who had very up and down season and would get plenty of minutes off the bench anyway throughout the season instead of guys like Mule and sometimes Zizzo.

And Dax gave the ball away on the play that lead to Royer's (backbreaking) goal in the knockout round.  If your point is players make mistakes that lead to goals, then I agree.

 

I don't know how much of that is on Murillo or how much is that Giovinco knew what they were doing and took it quick.  You don't see anyone (Robles in particular) screaming at Murillo to get moving.  Although it's hard to tell exactly from the highlights, it looks like Murillo basically starts moving when Robles gets set.  I'm guessing that was when he was told to go.

 

If the question is should he have started there, that's on the coaches.  The plan was obviously to let Giovinco start to think he had side of the goal and then have Murillo be there.



#114
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Paragraph 1: RBNY could have used Dax salary savings to either give people extentions/raises or sign Keita/Freddy G./pay loan/transfer fees no one knows which one they would have chose not to do if they did not sign Dax besides Denis and Jesse.  

That's exactly the point: they COULD have had Dax and current roster plus sign a few cheap prospects, like Murillo and Escobar, and forego Keita and Fred, but instead CHOSE to get rid of Dax and get bunch of expensive forwards (Fred, Keita) who are worse than our back-up Gonzalo. In other words, we got nothing of value that we couldn't have with Dax on the roster. Chicago got their top 3 guy, MLS all star, USMNT back-up, 29 turning 30. How people cannot see this as a major failure for us and a big win for Chicago is just surprising to me.

 

 

Paragraph 2: You lost me at Dax being significantly better than Adams.  That is not true anymore and will not be true for the rest of Dax's career in all probability. 

 

Also Dax trade saved 700k this year and another 700k next year in cap + allocation. Dani Royer costs ~ 450k. You are telling me if we signed a second Dani Royer instead of Freddy G with the money we wouldn't be a better team? and still have 250k left to get a defender.

I meant Dax being much better than Davis, not Adams. Davis would still get PT though, he is versatile and could have gotten minutes that went to Mule and possibly Zizzo as well. Royer costs about as much as Dax. What FO wanted to do is get a guy like that at forward, even though we already have Veron, who is next year I think will be better than BWP. Maybe even now. Certainly better than Keita and Fred. There was no attempt to bring in a defender with that salary. And it's not every time you luck out with a guy like Royer, very rarely. Dax is about as good a guy as you can get for that money. More likely than not you will get worse, and we did with Demare, Keita and Fred. In the meantime Chicago got top 3 player. Not a very good deal for us, but a terrible mismatch in Chicago's favor.



#115
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And Dax gave the ball away on the play that lead to Royer's (backbreaking) goal in the knockout round.  If your point is players make mistakes that lead to goals, then I agree.

 

I don't know how much of that is on Murillo or how much is that Giovinco knew what they were doing and took it quick.  You don't see anyone (Robles in particular) screaming at Murillo to get moving.  Although it's hard to tell exactly from the highlights, it looks like Murillo basically starts moving when Robles gets set.  I'm guessing that was when he was told to go.

 

If the question is should he have started there, that's on the coaches.  The plan was obviously to let Giovinco start to think he had side of the goal and then have Murillo be there.

Not blaming Murillo, just pointing out an obvious benefit if Dax were still on the roster instead of nothing of value that we got back for him.



#116
Koko

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Dax was on one of the ESPN FC podcasts. What a class act this guy is. I encourage everyone to listen to the interview. Some quotes (paraphrasing):

The Red Bulls were the better team in the Toronto series.

I honestly feel like in all of our playoff losses while I was with the Red Bulls we were the better team.

Jesse Marsch is the best coach Ive ever had.

Torontos big players made big plays and thats why theyre going through.

Big players need to take the blame for playoff losses because they get the praise when they win. I take a lot of responsibility for not being able to win MLS Cup while with the Red Bulls.

Ive had sleepless nights over the US failure to qualify even though I wasnt on the field.

#117
Borats

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Dax was on one of the ESPN FC podcasts. What a class act this guy is. I encourage everyone to listen to the interview. Some quotes (paraphrasing):

The Red Bulls were the better team in the Toronto series.
 

And most upsetting thing is: if Dax were still here and not given away, most likely the free kick goal does not happen and we win the series. Also think about this: big reason why Red Bulls were better is Adams, who from the back-up developed into NT caliber player and essentially made up Sacha's decline from MVP type player to average one by the end of the year. Basically Adams has now replaced Sacha as the team engine. Next year Sacha is probably a good guy off the bench. The funny thing is, with Royer, Felipe, and now Adams spending more time on offense, Veron playing out of his mind, what would be a perfect addition for us right now is a guy like Dax. He is still 30, has not lost a step, and is still one of if not the best defensive midfielder in MLS today. Good for two more years, and I doubt Adams will be here longer. Maybe a year, and even that is debatable.

 

BWP-Veron

Royer-Dax-Felipe--Adams

Lawrence-Long-Collin/Baah/DP--Murillo

Robles

 

Sacha, Davis, Lade, Escobar, Collin/Baah/Perinelle, Grella, etc, there could be trades, signings, off the bench. We would not have Keita and Fred G, whom perhaps we could not afford without Dax's trade.

 

Anyway, this is wishful thinking at this point, but with the above line-up, we probably beat Toronto this year and have a chance at the cup and definitely threaten next year. Now instead we are out of playoffs and are still looking for a player of Dax's caliber to plug into the lineup. Sometimes the best move is the one that's not made. Especially as pathetic as the one Jesse pulled giving away one of the top guys who was not even old, for peanuts.



#118
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And most upsetting thing is: if Dax were still here and not given away, most likely the free kick goal does not happen and we win the series. Also think about this: big reason why Red Bulls were better is Adams, who from the back-up developed into NT caliber player and essentially made up Sacha's decline from MVP type player to average one by the end of the year. Basically Adams has now replaced Sacha as the team engine. Next year Sacha is probably a good guy off the bench. The funny thing is, with Royer, Felipe, and now Adams spending more time on offense, Veron playing out of his mind, what would be a perfect addition for us right now is a guy like Dax. He is still 30, has not lost a step, and is still one of if not the best defensive midfielder in MLS today. Good for two more years, and I doubt Adams will be here longer. Maybe a year, and even that is debatable.
 
BWP-Veron
Royer-Dax-Felipe--Adams
Lawrence-Long-Collin/Baah/DP--Murillo
Robles
 
Sacha, Davis, Lade, Escobar, Collin/Baah/Perinelle, Grella, etc, there could be trades, signings, off the bench. We would not have Keita and Fred G, whom perhaps we could not afford without Dax's trade.
 
Anyway, this is wishful thinking at this point, but with the above line-up, we probably beat Toronto this year and have a chance at the cup and definitely threaten next year. Now instead we are out of playoffs and are still looking for a player of Dax's caliber to plug into the lineup. Sometimes the best move is the one that's not made. Especially as pathetic as the one Jesse pulled giving away one of the top guys who was not even old, for peanuts.

ha ha ha

Or we would have given up a different goal and lost the series. Just like we have ALL the other years that Dax was here and we didnt win jackshit.

#119
uptownbull

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Or we would have given up a different goal and lost the series. Just like we have ALL the other years that Dax was here and we didnt win jackshit.

RB cheaps out on defenders and wont splurge on a DP attacker (or two?!) to complement BWP - theyll always find a way to come up a goal short after giving up one too many.



#120
JBigjake54

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Or we would have given up a different goal and lost the series. Just like we have ALL the other years that Dax was here and we didnt win jackshit.


We do appear snakebit. 22 seasons, no MLS Cups or US Open Cups.
Ill take both Shields, but those triumphs are not in knock-out competitions.

We are good enough to beat the best teams, and bad enough to lose to the worst teams. 





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