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"Organic" teams


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#1
HarlemKnight

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Not a bad article...nothing new but not a bad summing up...a couple of glaring mistakes...and a quote that could get Shep fired (though I've warmed to him being the long term color guy despite the F.cosmos connection...at least he has a real Cosmos connection...and I like his work and him as a person)...interested to see if Red Bull picks up on the Shep quote or sees the article as just another internet fan product that carries no weight...

 

want to see that plan though...

 

If you meant this one...
 
"Red Bull and any team being owned by a corporation is the opposite of organic," Shep Messing, a Cosmos legend who does broadcasting for the Red Bulls, says. "Soccer is historically a very tribal sport around the world. The whole notion of a corporation, let alone a foreign corporation that is selling a drink, owning a team is the antithesis of an organic team that is adopted by the community. I think that's almost been insurmountable to Red Bull since they bought MetroStars."
 
I have to be honest here, he's not too far off from his assessment. Look, lots of die-hard soccer fans pretty much feel the same way in general. Like it or not, it's one of the factors on why the team isn't quite the fave rave here in NYC. Personally, even since the Cosmos came back, I thought he was one foot out the door anyway.

In aliquo puncto, vos have ut decernere si vos es a fan verum Morbi fan ut vere aut vult Morbi ludis.


#2
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If you meant this one...
 
"Red Bull and any team being owned by a corporation is the opposite of organic," Shep Messing, a Cosmos legend who does broadcasting for the Red Bulls, says. "Soccer is historically a very tribal sport around the world. The whole notion of a corporation, let alone a foreign corporation that is selling a drink, owning a team is the antithesis of an organic team that is adopted by the community. I think that's almost been insurmountable to Red Bull since they bought MetroStars."
 
I have to be honest here, he's not too far off from his assessment. Look, lots of die-hard soccer fans pretty much feel the same way in general. Like it or not, it's one of the factors on why the team isn't quite the fave rave here in NYC. Personally, even since the Cosmos came back, I thought he was one foot out the door anyway.

 

 

And that organic team with historical roots struggles to put 1K fans on those bleachers with even the merest threat of light rain...

 

And the "drink" edition of our team is in better shape than the one prior when we also had a name based on a company...in fact we're doing far, far better...

 

That what puts Shep in danger...what he's really doing is promoting F.cosmos in the same way we use history/stadium/fans...had they asked him a followup he'd have pointed out the downside of Man City USA...farm team...part of world wide promotional effort to get the mother ship into the same conversation with the really big superclubs...so Shep promotes his organic "main" club while on the MSG payroll to broadcast our games...he'd better watch it...



#3
NittanyMetros

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I think Shep nailed it, personally.  He's gonna be fired, but he nailed it.


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#4
beefyT

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#5
Paul Nasta

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In this day and age, describing any professional soccer team as "organic" is off the mark.



#6
MikeV

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In this day and age, describing any professional soccer team as "organic" is off the mark.

 

 

Please elaborate.



#7
thoward18

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Please elaborate.

The fucking Premier League is sponsored by a bank. There are advertisements on all the jerseys. An oil tycoon from the UAE owns the best team in England right now and has populated the entire team with imports from other countries. All the awards at the World Cup are now sponsored. The World Cup was literally bought by Qatar. That's a start. 



#8
Paul Nasta

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Please elaborate.

It's hard to argue with his statement that RBNY, a team owned by a corporation and named after a drink, is the opposite of organic.  But are there really "organic" soccer teams anymore?  Are the Cosmos, owned by an a Saudi sports marketing firm and an Irish sports marketer who is based in Asia, organic?  And if so, what's the distinction?  Are the NE Revs organic because they are owned by an individual, and a local one at that?

 

I don't think any MLS teams are organic, at least not how I understand that word to be used.  Whether they're owned by an individual or a corporation, they're businesses.  Every team wants to succeed on the field, but they all also want to make money.

 

And I think you can question whether a lot of teams around the world which once were considered organic really are at this point.  Man U?  Bayern Munich?  Are they organic soccer teams or global brands, or can you be both?

 

Maybe people have this romantic vision of a bunch of local guys getting together in a pub on a Friday and forming a soccer team, and having the townspeople turn out every Saturday because that team represents the town.   I don't know if that's what "organic" means in this context, but I just don't think that's how it works anymore.  Especially here in the United States.

 

No offense to Shep, but organic just isn't a word you can use to describe any professional teams in the United States.



#9
RedBullScouse

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It's just assinine.  If you took all the major soccer teams and eliminated the corporate owned ones, and the ones owned by non-local billionaires or billionaire ownership groups with no connection to the community, you would have very few teams left to support.    The first major pro team ever here was Clark ONT - named to promote "Our New Thread," owned by the Clark Thread Company to promote their new product.      :deadhorse:

 

Organic is a meaningless term.  We are all carbon-based (except DC, who are scum-based).   Its about authenticity, and authenticity has nothing to do with the owners, and everything to do with the commitment of supporters and the commitment of players on the field.


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#10
MikeV

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It's hard to argue with his statement that RBNY, a team owned by a corporation and named after a drink, is the opposite of organic.  But are there really "organic" soccer teams anymore?  Are the Cosmos, owned by an a Saudi sports marketing firm and an Irish sports marketer who is based in Asia, organic?  And if so, what's the distinction?  Are the NE Revs organic because they are owned by an individual, and a local one at that?

 

I don't think any MLS teams are organic, at least not how I understand that word to be used.  Whether they're owned by an individual or a corporation, they're businesses.  Every team wants to succeed on the field, but they all also want to make money.

 

And I think you can question whether a lot of teams around the world which once were considered organic really are at this point.  Man U?  Bayern Munich?  Are they organic soccer teams or global brands, or can you be both?

 

Maybe people have this romantic vision of a bunch of local guys getting together in a pub on a Friday and forming a soccer team, and having the townspeople turn out every Saturday because that team represents the town.   I don't know if that's what "organic" means in this context, but I just don't think that's how it works anymore.  Especially here in the United States.

 

No offense to Shep, but organic just isn't a word you can use to describe any professional teams in the United States.

 

 

If you have a very strict definition of organic as a club that isn't a business, I guess there aren't any organic clubs (Although without doing any research at all I'm pretty sure there are some non-profit clubs). But there are certainly degrees of organic or authenticity or however you want to describe it. Even at the massive club level, Manchester United became hugely popular and wealthy through playing well for decades in a soccer mad city. Man City were bought by sheikh. I'd say Man Utd. are a more organic team in that situation. Similarly I'd say an MLS team with a local identity and engaged owner is more organic feeling than one that is named after a soda and part of a giant portfolio of sports properties. We can act like all teams are equally odious since they all want to make profits but I think there are very clearly differences. 



#11
Paul Nasta

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Maybe it's semantics - I just don't think "organic" is a good word to use to describe a professional soccer team.

 

Let me ask you this, if an engaged owner is one factor making a team more organic, what if Dieter Mateschitz started to attend RBNY games?  Would RBNY therefore become more organic?  Is there a difference on the organic scale if he attends every game, or only half of them?  And what do you mean by a "local identity"?  Every MLS team is named after the city/state/area they play in, how does one have more of a local identity than any other?  Doesn't RBNY, with all of it's academy teams, youth trainers, camps etc. have a pretty strong local identity?  I can tell you that youth soccer players (and their parents) here on LI all know the Red Bulls, even if they can't be bothered to go to games.

 

I read somewhere that when Celtic won the 1967 European Cup, something like 10 of the 11 starters were born either in Glasgow or within a few miles of Glasgow.  Now, that team had a local identity and maybe you could say that team was organic.  But that was almost 50 years ago, and the soccer world today is nothing like it was then.



#12
MikeV

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"Let me ask you this, if an engaged owner is one factor making a team more organic, what if Dieter Mateschitz started to attend RBNY games?  Would RBNY therefore become more organic?  Is there a difference on the organic scale if he attends every game, or only half of them?"

 

Would our team be more organic if our owner was actively engaged with the team including attending matches? Yes of course. I know you are trying to make it sound silly with third question but I think its silly that you don't think the owner's knowledge and involvement with the team he owns is a factor in how authentic its identity is. 

 

If the team was called the Red Bulls but were the only team with that name and the owner was actually very interested in the team, it would still be worse than not being a marketing gimmick, but it would be a degree more organic than the current situation. 

 

 

 

 

"And what do you mean by a "local identity"?"

 

Portland Timbers, Seattle Sounders, San Jose Earthquakes etc are all names based on features or qualities of the area they play in and in these three cases also draw on the existing soccer history and culture in the area. That's an identity that is easy for locals to connect with. Even generic names like D.C. United are more closely connected to the city than a name that is a soda brand and attached to multiple other teams including 3 soccer teams. 

 

 

 

 

"I read somewhere that when Celtic won the 1967 European Cup, something like 10 of the 11 starters were born either in Glasgow or within a few miles of Glasgow.  Now, that team had a local identity and maybe you could say that team was organic.  But that was almost 50 years ago, and the soccer world today is nothing like it was then."

 

Sure the world has changed and is more globalized. But I don't think you could have given a better example of the degrees to which clubs represent an identity or community than Celtic. Maybe the players aren't glaswegian anymore but that's a club that is still very firmly associated with a certain community after more than 100 years. 

 


#13
MiLo4891

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The most organic following in the US imo is college football. Make actual acadamies make one in upstate and one in each borough. Make them a k- 12 school and just like any other charter school except after regular school they take an hour break and then have soccer curriculum. This makes the academy better and widens it's nets being cast and will develop a organic following
I just want Metro to win a title sometime in my lifetime.

#14
MiLo4891

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The most organic following in the US imo is college football. Make actual acadamies make one in upstate and one in each borough. Make them a k- 12 school and just like any other charter school except after regular school they take an hour break and then have soccer curriculum. This makes the academy better and widens it's nets being cast and will develop a organic following
I just want Metro to win a title sometime in my lifetime.

#15
Pebble

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"Let me ask you this, if an engaged owner is one factor making a team more organic, what if Dieter Mateschitz started to attend RBNY games?  Would RBNY therefore become more organic?  Is there a difference on the organic scale if he attends every game, or only half of them?"

 

Would our team be more organic if our owner was actively engaged with the team including attending matches? Yes of course. I know you are trying to make it sound silly with third question but I think its silly that you don't think the owner's knowledge and involvement with the team he owns is a factor in how authentic its identity is. 

 

If the team was called the Red Bulls but were the only team with that name and the owner was actually very interested in the team, it would still be worse than not being a marketing gimmick, but it would be a degree more organic than the current situation. 

 

 

 

 

"And what do you mean by a "local identity"?"

 

Portland Timbers, Seattle Sounders, San Jose Earthquakes etc are all names based on features or qualities of the area they play in and in these three cases also draw on the existing soccer history and culture in the area. That's an identity that is easy for locals to connect with. Even generic names like D.C. United are more closely connected to the city than a name that is a soda brand and attached to multiple other teams including 3 soccer teams. 

 

 

 

 

"I read somewhere that when Celtic won the 1967 European Cup, something like 10 of the 11 starters were born either in Glasgow or within a few miles of Glasgow.  Now, that team had a local identity and maybe you could say that team was organic.  But that was almost 50 years ago, and the soccer world today is nothing like it was then."

 

Sure the world has changed and is more globalized. But I don't think you could have given a better example of the degrees to which clubs represent an identity or community than Celtic. Maybe the players aren't glaswegian anymore but that's a club that is still very firmly associated with a certain community after more than 100 years. 

 

 

I'd go with C.D. Guadalajara or Athletic Bilboa as "representing an identity or community" over Celtic. 


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Thursday, November 27, 2008 -

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