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U.S. v. Italy (R)


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#31 samoabob

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 04:55 PM

I met Sunil G.


If you were drunk this would have been

I beat up Sunil G.

#32 fredo9

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 07:10 PM

The case with Jozy isn't so much that he is awful and I expect him to be better (given he is a professional soccer player I kinda do) but, why Klinsi, as well as BB before him, keeps starting Jozy alone up top.

I know we're thin at the forward position. But, Buddle, Herc, Agudelo, Dempsey, etc. aren't getting the looks up front when so many minutes are being wasted on a toothless setup.

Landon obviously changes things because he rotates with Demps and whoever is alone up top and makes things happen. But, Williams, Sacha & Shea are not Landon. No one is. So, give the forward(s) help, be they Jozy, Wondo or Edson.

I understand why we clog the midfield against teams like Italy. It's very familiar. But, I am also looking for the fresh ideas from Klinsi. And, for me, Jozy is the antithesis of freshness.

Genoa is shitty.

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#33 stopper

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 08:10 PM

Dempsey is becoming a great player. I said great player.

Jr. did not suck. In fact, his passes were efficient. I am always willing to give up the hate, and I feel there is a detente between me and Michael Bradley (yes, that's his name). What I liked the most was his defensive positioning. There were several instances when he had to close down, just outside the area, and I was expecting him to do what he normally does--run hard at the ball, chase it or miss the tackle, then jog behind the play while others clean up his mess. Yesterday, he got goalside and stood his man up. WOW!!! What a fucking revelation. That is BASIC!! And yet, there are so many undisciplined, reckless player at all levels that mess it up, and Bradley did it all the time. Not yesterday.

Edu showed the same composure in the same situations.

See, I don't hate the 4-5-1. I use it with my high school team, mostly out of necessity. But if the US has a lot of good d-mids, and the US is capable of attacking out of the back with it, then why not? Of course, we need to see better from Jozy, or have Buddle try it. But with Donovan and Holden starting in the wing, and Dempsey roaming behind the forward, all you need is either Bradley or Edu, or Torres, to step into the center when we win possession.

It will take a fluid, quick thinking team to be able to transition from a 4-5-1 to a 4-4-2 in possession, but I think the US can do this. Bradley showed brains last night. I think Edu, Torres, Holden, Donovan, and Dempsey are all smart guys. Not sure about Williams, but Johnson looks bright. And if any of you saw the US v Mexico U23s last night, Adu looked good (Where's the hate?!) and Corona looked VERY promising.

The only one who is obviously dim is Jozy. Buddle is much smarter. Of course, if you have a dumb player, you have to do the thinking for him. Dempsey's run created Jozy's pass, so that works.

Bunbury looked awful. And Boyd didn't look so good. Late in the game, when a forward has to do some defending, Bunbury was invisible. Not smart, and his decisions with the ball and poor ball control spoke volumes. Not ready for prime time.

Happy we did not see Wondo and White Rasta Trash.

EDIT: I liked the uniform. Kind of old school. And Kilnnsman has to get over Brek Shea.

#34 Riggs.

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 04:40 AM

I missed the game, anyone have a recording they could upload or know where I could find one?

#35 Zero Cool

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 11:12 AM

I missed the game, anyone have a recording they could upload or know where I could find one?

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#36 tracer

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 01:19 PM

i finally finished watching the game... i think it was a little of bob bradley'ism there.... now i just can't tell why...

alexi lalas said klinsi might have become practical about things and realized that "that is who we are"... that scares me... because we peaked at "who we are" under bradley...we need to start going at these teams and playing like we belong. ultimately, i think we got a lucky goal and held on for dear life, ALTHOUGH I will admit we did play with Italy for a good while until the goal.

that said, when Italy turned it on, we had no response. we were very very fortunate in not giving up multiple goals in this game.

i just hope it's not a pratical klinsi but a "We don't have the right players" yet thing... i can't wait to see fransico torres in there with bradley...we need a game changer in the midfield who can break defenses one on one in order to be more of threat....

the two d-mid thing worked...but in a world cup game we get blasted by this italian team. you gotta have at least one guy in the middle to cause havoc...

...

and yea jozy sucks ... i wanna see him do well, he really is still young...but ughhhh he's so frustrating to watch.

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#37 AnthonyNHB

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 03:00 PM

I finally watched the game last night. I wasn't happy with a few players, namely Brek and Williams(?) R-Mid. Both did not look very strong and gave away the ball. Brek does a lot of the "just kick it forward" type of play, which gives away possession too often. Sasha does not know how to defend. Him playing on the wing is a disaster. With the exception of the one layoff to Demps, Jozy was pretty worthless. The short time Boyd was on there, he showed a lot better skill at controlling the ball. In Buddle's 3 minutes of play, he showed more skill at maintaining possession than Jozy.

The defense looked pretty poor for the first 15 minutes, but they settled down. At the end they were scrambling to prevent opportunities. The back four needs to improve significantly. We need to find someone to take Boca's place, as he is getting on in years and won't be a very good selection come 2014.

I can't wait to see Torres, Donovan, Holden and Dempsey all on the field at the same time. I think that would make a huge difference in our ability to control the flow and pace of the game.

Happy for the win.

P.S. That short #10 on Italy made some impressive plays.

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#38 dirtyboy

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 04:09 PM

Buddle will be 31 in two months and has three goals for the US team. Why some of you are complaining about his playing time is beyond me. Terrence Boyd is 21 and apparently has potential. At this point I'd rather give the 21 a shot than a 31 year old who should have no business playing for the USMNT by 2014.

The second half of the year should be interesting for the USMNT. Once the Olympics are finished, those guys (u-23s) will need to either make the jump up or be forgotten.

#39 Catamount

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Posted 03 March 2012 - 06:52 PM

Not sure what Lalas and folks on this board are seen that resembles BB teams. Things I saw against Italy that I didn't at any time in the BB era.
  • 12 consecutive passes leading to a game winning goal against a team better than Barbados.
  • All nine players behind the ball in the same television window when the opponent has the ball in their own half.
  • Michael Bradley (like he plays for his club) rather than Junior.
  • Clint Dempsey locking down Pirlo (or any other creative midfielder).
  • Clint Dempsey creating all game long
  • Three to four US players in the box when a goal is scored
  • US team playing out of the back as often as hoofing it forward.
  • Players exchanging positions on a semi regular basis.
  • Clean sheet against a team better than Mexico.
  • A team that keeps a lead against a quality opponent without yeilding many clear cut chances.
  • Confidence that a win against a top team is more than possible.
  • A top team worried that the US might score.
  • Add your observation here.

There are quite a few familiar players who play as they always have, but the team looks completely different to me. Sorry Alexi... :pint:

#40 stopper

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 02:11 AM

Seriously, Alexi is a hater. I don't know what he is looking for. Lots of times he is criticizing the team for not doing something that they've been doing. Weird. I can't believe he actually thinks Boob got screwed. I wonder if he hates Klinnsman for some reason, something personal.

Imagine Jozy with brains.

#41 josh24601

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 02:50 PM

I think a lot of the US Soccer "old school" guys who got access to Bob and came up through the old establishment program and all that really don't like somebody from the outside coming in and taking over their thing. You can tell so, so very easily who is going to hate on Klinsmann by the amount of Bob's crap they still have hanging on their nose. Bob was "one of them" and there's a new sheriff in town, and they don't like it. Guys like Harkes come to mind immediately. They also resent the "superstar" and "savior" status that Klinsy has in fandom circles, and I think they resent the idea that one person at the top can come in and make things so much better. So that's why you get the "see, he has the same players as Bob blah blah" stuff.

The whole story for these people before Italy and Slovenia was "well jeeze this guy needs to win some games or people are going to start wondering if he's actually the solution here". As if there was ever any doubt amongst us normal people. Then he beats freaking Italy in Genoa, and the new tune is "Defend and counter attack, that's how Bob won in the Confed Cup... nothing new here...." I can go on and on. "Oh he's got Michael Bradley back in the starting lineup, we all knew he belonged there." Completely ignoring the small detail that the entire play isn't running through him, and he's playing more to his strength now, and he's just a number on the field working for the privilege to be part of the system, not Junior the Playmaker.

Yet all of the "old school" obviously is not anti-Klinsy. Claudio Reyna, Tab Ramos, etc are deeply involved with what he's doing. Probably because they don't feel their ego threatened by him.

In short,

Haters gonna hate.

#42 Captain Obvious

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 04:21 PM

The biggest difference I saw can be drawn in a comparison between the US-Italy match and the US-Spain Confed Cup match.

While both were victories, there were staggering differences in the actual game. We had no right to beat Spain. That was a 1 in 100 victory. Anyone who's played the game at a somewhat high level has experienced a game like that. You have fifty shots, hit the bar, have 90% possession and lose. This was US-Spain in a nutshell. We were outclassed, out everything.

Then, US-Italy was an even match. I feel the 1-0 victory while maybe a little flattering, was a fair result. A draw would have been fair as well. Howard made one ridiculous save early and then Italy threatened but never had those chances that left you wondering how they didn't go in. We possessed the ball, stayed organized and played with a purpose in trying to go forward, something we rarely did against good competition under BB.

There's a huge difference between bunkering and praying for a counterattack win and playing a compact, organized game. You never saw Dempsey and Jozy in our 18 defending; that was the norm under BB.

Are we going to go and try to outclass Italy/Germany/Brazil/Spain/Holland? No but under Klinsmann I get the feeling that we will respect but not fear them like BB did.

#43 AnthonyNHB

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 04:37 PM

... we will respect but not fear them like BB did.


Great post. One of the things that drove me nuts about Bradley was he feared the other team, especially when we were playing away, or versus a good international opponent.

In WCQ, we played afraid in Costa Rica and in Mexico. Even playing Jamaica, we didn't look to take the game to them, we sat back and defended hoping to get 1 point on the road. Also in the world cup, he did it as well. We clearly were better than England, but we played afraid, and once Dempsey scored, he was content to sit back and defend.

It reminds me of a prevent defense in the NFL, which usually prevents you from winning. I get the feeling that Klinsmann has the attitude that we can compete with any other country, but we need to be smart tactically. In the case of Italy, he knew that they were a strong offensive team that controls play, so he focused the team on maintaining vertical compactedness and attack as a team when we were in advantageous positions. This wasn't a 1-2 man counter like we had with Bradley. This was smart play top to bottom.

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#44 josh24601

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 05:53 PM

And it makes sense that the team would play this way now, Klinsmann's entire worldview and demeanor is such that the US is going to play its game, expect each other to perform as they should, have confidence in each other and themselves, and be smart.

But most importantly, Klinsmann understands that each player has unique strengths and abilities, and looks for the lineup that matches each players strengths and abilities in the best fashion to succeed. BB did the opposite, he chose to fit the team around Bradley and Jozy. What Klinsmann is doing is letting Bradley do what Bradley does best. He's letting Dempsey do what Dempsey does best. Etc, etc. He's said that a lot. His decisions aren't necessarily based on "who's the best individual performer at each position" so much as "which group of players combine together to create the best whole". I'm still not certain why Jozy is still a big part of that equation (Buddle/Herc's age in 2014 may be the factor), but just tactically and fundamentally, it's a much different way of approaching the game.

It takes confidence for players to do this - to excel at their individual skill sets - in order to function as part of an overall collective at the same time. Which is another thing that Klinsy is big on infusing into the players. Which is why he schedules France in France, and Italy in Italy. And he doesn't go into those games with a mindset of fear or inferiority, but of confidence and respect. The dude oozes confidence, and it is slowly seeping into the make up of the team. Do you think Klinsmann is afraid of playing any of these Central American teams in their stadiums? He respects the situation, but no. He's not. Fear will not be a factor in how those games are approached, and I expect we will continue to see a much more assertive USMNT team - even in unfriendly circumstances. Like you guys are saying, you can lean towards a tactically defensive stance when it's warranted while still remaining assertive.

Respect, but not fear.

It's quite a task to turn the entire mentality of the program around like this, but clearly it's happening.

And that's why results don't matter
- even beating Italy doesn't really matter unless you are a TV commentator and you want to make the product you are selling (the game) sound really rad and appealing to the lowest common denominator of fan.

Right now the focus is not whether these games are being won or lost on the scoreboard, but in how the team is playing the games. Wins will come so long as this process continues.

If nobody has noticed, I freaking love it.

#45 fredo9

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Posted 09 March 2012 - 08:34 PM

I don't think anyone around here wants BB back. Some of the things I saw in the Italy game have me concerned about the basic issues that existed before Klinsi arrived because I'm anxious for the evolution of the USMNT to happen quicker.

Some things I saw:

1. Us sitting back and defending that 1 goal lead for 25 minutes. 
2. Stale player selection and use e.g.,  Lonesome Jozy
3. Edu+Bradley D-Mid pairing
4. No true left back on the squad
5. The opponent attacking our box mercilessly for 25 minutes
6. Being rescued again by either LD or Deuce, in this case Dempsey

The main debate before BB was sacked was:  Is it the player pool or the coach's tactics that are holding the mighty USA back?

Many people sided with player pool then. I held the opinion that BB stuck with "his boys" too much which hurt us in our ability to play more attackingly and more creatively.

In the Costa Rica game last summer, Klinsi had the team possessing, passing, and moving. Also, in that game Jozy looked  awful and we lost. 

But, we also played with movement, combination play and attacking flair in the first half of the Gold Cup final against Mexico under BB.  2009 Confederations Cup? We attacked Egypt under BB and scored 3 goals because we had to.

Now, I believe many of the teams we've played against under Klinsi have allowed us to have the ball in the first half. Italy did too. Opposing coaches know what Klinsi wants to do and they oblige until they figure us out. It's an especially Concacafy thing to do against us.

This brings me to the player pool, if Klinsi believes a 4-5-1 against a team like Italy is his best bet, that gives me a big hint about what's holding us back and I should practice more patience.

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