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Blu-Ray v HD DVD


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#1 WolfmanHasNards!

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Posted 25 August 2006 - 11:44 PM

Does anyone plan on dropping the big bucks one one of these players? Blu-Ray players are going for $999.99 on BestBuy.com. I don't know much about either format but the news that some film companies will be releasing their dvds on one format only is angering. If you're a technology geek I'd like to read your thoughts about the players. Do you think one is better than the other? Perhaps it's best to wait for the pending format war to end.

#2 kamil

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 12:12 AM

I don't know much about the difference in them, but I do know that LG is planning/will be coming out with a dvd player that plays both blu ray and HD DVD.

Oh, and the BluRay samsung dvd player looks a whole lot better, then the Toshiba HD DVD player.

#3 Saeyddthe

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 12:20 AM

Man, that's an interesting one...
It's just too hard to call, at this point...
Blu-Ray holds a lot more info, but it's also a lot more expensive (seriously, have you tried checking on eBay? insane)...and will be for the foreseeable future, since it uses a different coating which requires new machinery for the disk manufacturers...
They both use the same type of laser, but the apertures differ, so they can't both be read with the same one...although I suppose it's still possible that the resolution could come in the form of bi-compatible hardware...
If XBoX really does come out with an HD DVD unit, that could have a significant impact...
Microsoft hasn't officially come out on either side, but they do have an odd compatibility arrangement with some of the HD DVD people...
They both use the same codecs, so that's not really an issue yet.

I'd really like to know how it's all going to fall out, because I want some...but I ain't gonna be the guy stuck with BetaMax 2006, if you know what I mean...

#4 Chow

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 04:02 AM

I heard that the new PS3 is gona be blue ray? Anyone else hear this?

#5 Saeyddthe

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 04:20 AM

Not a word...doesn't mean it's not true, but it strikes me as more of a reaction to the XboX=HD rumor...which sounds like it's on pretty solid ground, from what I hear.

#6 phantum

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 06:19 AM

Not only is the PS3 gonna be Blu-ray, it's gonna be the cheapest way of getting Blu-ray. $500 for the PS3 which is a fully functional Blu-ray DVD player and a gaming console vs $800 for a stand alone player. The XBox 360 is HD DVD which, in this geeks opinion, will be it's thorn.

I would definitely wait it out to see who (Sony) wins if you're not a gamer. But if you are it won't matter. Chances are you already own an XBox (HD DVD) and you'll be plunking down $600 for the upper pricepoint of the PS3 (Blu-ray) so you'll have all bases covered.

I'm willing to bet that in the medium haul Blu-ray wins and Microsoft will just use HD DVD for it's future 360's.

#7 creativedestruction

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 09:33 AM

Blu-Ray holds a lot more info, but it's also a lot more expensive (seriously, have you tried checking on eBay? insane)...and will be for the foreseeable future, since it uses a different coating which requires new machinery for the disk manufacturers...
They both use the same type of laser, but the apertures differ, so they can't both be read with the same one...although I suppose it's still possible that the resolution could come in the form of bi-compatible hardware...
If XBoX really does come out with an HD DVD unit, that could have a significant impact...
Microsoft hasn't officially come out on either side, but they do have an odd compatibility arrangement with some of the HD DVD people...

This and other things I've read lead me to believe that HD DVD will be the winner. In part because of the lack of new machinery needed means that cheaper manufacturers can get in the game and help bring the cost down making it more available to the masses.

But this gives me a good idea for my next class. We're going to talk about trends so lets see what my students think of this debate.

#8 *L97KID*

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 10:18 AM

There was an article in the Official Playstation Magazine (can't cite it because I have way too many magazines to go through) where the marketing head of SCEA explained that the PS3 will be marketed towards gamers (Gaming mags and stations like G4TV) as the Next Big Thingâ„¢ in gaming consoles whereas in mainstream media (Miscellaneous mags, ABC, CBS, NBC etc) there will be heavy marketing as a media center with "affordable" Blu-ray capabilities.

Of course there will be marketing overlaps between the two demographics - I can't see how Sony could pass up the opportunity to showcase Madden07 for the PS3 on ESPN - but by and large there will be the idea that the PlayStation3 is two entirely different things.

PLAY IN YOUR WORLD, DIE IN MINE

#9 Nowak4o7

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 10:37 AM

Alan Parsons wishes it wasn't so. But like it or not, the senior vice president of Pioneer's industrial solutions business group has become a wary foot soldier in the battle over the future of the DVD format. As music blares from a band playing at a nearby exhibit at the 2005 International CES, Parsons sits at a small table in a meeting room contemplating how the next couple of years might play out. He remains relatively reserved, trying not to let his passion for the next-generation Blu-Ray Disc format devolve into vitriol against rival format HD-DVD. "I don't like the rock throwing," he insists. "I just want to excite consumers."

That may be true, but Parsons still finds it hard to resist getting in a few digs on the HD-DVD rival, which at about 15 gigabytes per layer has roughly 40 percent less storage capacity than the Blu-Ray format. "They might end up with something ho-hum," he says. "They're saying that [their capacity] is good, but people used to think that five gigs was good enough." Parsons shrugs his shoulders a bit, wearing a look of calm but certain exasperation. "Why would we limit ourselves to a lower capacity?" he asks.

To be sure, Parsons is among several CE manufacturers backing the Blu-Ray format, which they claim is superior to HD-DVD. But the HD-DVD format has its own backers, who while fewer in numbers, are equally adamant that their format will win out because of its lower transition and manufacturing costs—as well as other technical benefits and its expected quicker time to market. Indeed, either format is a vast improvement over the current DVD design, which maxes out at about 4.7 gigabytes. Even at standard-definition quality, that's barely enough space for a two-hour movie and a few hours of special features. And with that much space, forget about high-definition TV.

VHS vs. Beta all over Again?

Both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs enable HDTV reproduction because of their massive storage capacities. Using dual-layer techniques, HD-DVD can store as much as 30 gigabytes of data while a Blu-Ray disc can pack in a whopping 50 gigabytes. In the lab, techies already are working on several-layered discs that could allow more than 100 gigabytes of storage on one disc. That's enough for several HDTV movies, special features and compelling interactive content. Or a content provider could put more than 100 hours of standard-definition quality programming on one DVD. All 180 episodes of Seinfeld on one disc, anyone?

The benefits for backward compatibility are clear: new players will be able to handle both old and new DVD formats in the same machine (outfitted with both red- and blue-laser diodes)—a major consumer benefit that manufacturers hope will drive unit sales.

Blu-Ray and HD-DVD both use blue lasers, which operate at lower wavelengths (405 nanometers) than current red lasers (650 nanometers). That microscopic difference goes a long way. Longer wavelengths suffer more diffraction, which limits their ability to focus tightly on a surface. But a blue laser's shorter wavelength allows it to read and write data over a much tighter surface area, which in turn allows storage of far more data on a disc that's roughly the same diameter of current DVDs. The benefits for backward compatibility are clear: New players will be able to handle both old and new DVD formats in the same machine (outfitted with both red- and blue-laser diodes)—a major consumer benefit that manufacturers hope will drive unit sales.

But while consumers won't have to worry about obsolescence when it comes to their old DVD collections, the format war brewing between new Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs does present an age-old problem that evokes the VHS vs. Beta fiasco of the 1980s. The HD-DVD format—like the VHS format that won out over Beta—could become far more widely available to consumers sooner and at a lower price (at least initially) than Blu-Ray discs. That's because the HD-DVD format utilizes manufacturing techniques very similar to those used for the current generation of DVDs. Translation: Third-party duplication houses won't have to retool their factories significantly to make HD-DVDs a reality. That means that HD-DVD discs likely will be the first to market by at least several months, probably by the end of 2005.

On the other hand, Blu-Ray discs require an entirely new manufacturing process with transition costs borne largely by duplicators (unless Blu-Ray backers devise a subsidy system. That, along with other issues, is expected to delay the introduction of Blu-Ray discs until sometime in 2006, which could hand a major advantage to the HD-DVD format. (add hard return here) "In this kind of battle, the guy who is out there first and cheaper is going to be the winner," says Fariborz Ghadar, director for the Center for Global Business Studies at Penn State University. "The more expensive and later one is going to be the loser." (The Blu-Ray camp contends that it will bring manufacturing costs nearly in line with HD-DVD during the next year. Parsons says that HD-DVD's cost advantage will amount to only "pennies" per disc over the Blu-Ray format). (add hard return here as well) "Unlike Blu-Ray discs, HD-DVD discs can be manufactured with similar equipment in the same plants that make current DVDs," said Jodi Sally, vice president of marketing for Toshiba America Consumer Products digital audio video products.

Duking It Out

Still, the nature of the next-generation rollout itself may force consumers to take sides early. Because of the vastly different physical attributes of Blu-Ray and HD-DVD discs, it's cost-prohibitive for manufacturers to produce next-generation players that can handle both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD formats in one machine. "You would need two pickup heads, and it would be very expensive," explains Stephen Balogh, business development manager at Intel's corporate technology group. So manufacturers have lined up on opposite sides of the fence, ready to produce players that only work with one or the other format. That could spell consumer confusion as buyers fear picking the wrong one and ending up with an obsolete player and content library.

Each side wants to convince consumers that they should avoid the other side's format. HD-DVD backers are planning a "you want it, and we're here now" marketing strategy, whereas the Blu-Ray camp largely plans to adopt a "we won't be first, but we'll be better" campaign designed to warn consumers away from HD-DVD.

So what's the breakdown of forces on each side? On the Blu-Ray side is a large group of CE manufacturers, including Dell, Hewlett Packard, Hitachi, LG Electronics, Mitsubishi Electric, Panasonic (Matsushita Electric), Pioneer, Royal Philips Electronics, Samsung Electronics, Sharp, Sony, TDK and Thomson. Some content providers also are onboard. In addition to obvious backing from Sony-affiliated movie studios Sony Pictures Entertainment and Metro-Goldwyn-Mayer, the Walt Disney Company and its home-video division Buena Vista Entertainment offered its non-exclusive endorsement of Blu-Ray in December. In addition, video gaming powerhouse Electronic Arts, along with Vivendi Universal Games, both came out for Blu-Ray at the 2005 International CES in January.

Most gaming companies have yet to pick sides, although Blu-Ray's larger storage capacity may win some of them over. "If you show Blu-Ray to a game manufacturer and say you can have an extra 20 gigabytes of storage, it's a drop-dead deal," says Blu-Ray backer Richard Doherty, managing director for Blu-Ray and professional AV at Panasonic Hollywood Labs. Of course, most PC-based games haven't even moved up to the current generation of DVDs from CDs, so it's unclear whether most gaming companies will utilize high-definition DVD formats for some time.

The main backer of the HD-DVD format is Toshiba, which by itself has more market dominance than several CE backers on the Blu-Ray side combined, along with smaller players NEC and Sanyo. Toshiba plans to launch its first HD-DVD players in late 2005. In December, even Thomson—which is actually a Blu-Ray disc backer—announced that it also would sell HD-DVD players by late 2005. And an impressive list of entertainment content companies has thrown their weight behind HD-DVD, including Paramount, Universal Studios and Warner Bros. (along with Time Warner-owned New Line Cinema). All of these studios have already announced a significant amount of titles on HD-DVD to be available at the time HD-DVD players are introduced.

Toshiba is dedicated to the HD-DVD format and executives staunchly believe they will win the marketing battle for consumers even before Blu-Ray gets its format off the ground in 2006. "The key part of this is going to be driven by content," says Maciek Brzeski, vice president of marketing in Toshiba's storage device division.

He says consumers won't care whether the disc has 30 gigabytes or 50 gigabytes of capacity—only that the content they want is ready and available at a good price. Brzeski questions the Blu-Ray camp's ability to jazz consumers about a format that he says offers little more than a few extra gigabytes of storage. "They're going to be marketing technology, and we're going to be marketing products," he says. "It's hard to sell technology to consumers."

"Our rich heritage in the development of DVD technology means that we are well equipped for the market transition from DVD to HD-DVD," added Sally, who also serves as Vice-President for the Digital Entertainment Group. "With proven backwards compatibility and real software titles available at launch, we are certain that we can deliver the very best solution in HD-DVD technology for both consumers as well as the content providers."

In December, Toshiba and other HD-DVD backers formed the HD-DVD Promotion Group to promote the format, and to ensure early product launches and subsequent market penetration.

Other pros and cons seem to bleed together as both formats offer similar features. For example, while HD-DVD touts the ability to create discs with red-laser standard DVD format on one side and blue-laser HD-DVD standard on the other, a Blu-Ray Disc Association spokeswoman points out that JVC announced in December a disc that allows both standard DVD and Blu-Ray content on a single side of the disc. The Blu-Ray camp has argued that single-sided discs are more consumer friendly.

The Pricing Strategy

In the vital area of picture quality, both formats also have a difficult time differentiating between one another. "Either format can produce a very good image," says Richard Dean, director of technical business development at THX Inc. "To me, it boils down to the price of the equipment and the availability of content."

Dean, who has helped master the DVD releases of the Star Wars trilogy and other blockbuster movies, says that consumers won't notice any real quality difference between the formats. But he says HD-DVD may end up with an advantage if it can under price Blu-Ray discs and players. "I think that's going to play a very large role." As for Blu-Ray's greater storage capacity, "more space is always an advantage," Dean says, "but the question is how much more space is really needed." Notes Parsons: "If you start doing HD bonus features, it will suck up capacity very quickly."

Intel executives, who first got involved in the working groups for next-generation DVD formats to help avoid a format war, already are bracing for an era of consumer confusion as a Blu-Ray-vs.-HD-DVD scenario takes shape. "We didn't want two formats coming out," says Balogh. "Now we have an even standoff, so neither side wants to compromise whatsoever." Making matters worse, he says, the entertainment studios also are split between Blu-Ray and HD-DVD, although more big studios have backed HD-DVD at this point.

"The studios will be the kingmakers here," he says. Ultimately, consumers may struggle to figure out what kind of players and media to purchase during the next couple of years. "The most important benefit to the consumer is that the HD-DVD players that we'll be introducing to the market this year will be fully backward compatible with the current DVDs that are already in consumers' homes. With the Blu-Ray formats' backward compatibility isn't so simple," adds Sally.

Still, many are wary. "It would be best if we went to market without two formats," says Panasonic's Doherty. "We're very disappointed that we're in a format war." As the battle heats up in 2005 and well into 2006, consumers will decide which format will succeed.







Good article... :) Sorry, No cliff's way to lazy right now.

#10 projectmayhem

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 01:24 PM

I think it's way too soon to buy either of these players. 1) They are still much too expensive. The leap in picture quality does not justify the cost. It's not nearly as significant as VHS to DVD was. Also, I'm still reading alot about crashes, long load times, etc. 2) Who knows who will win this war. Maybe both formats will co-exist. Maybe one side will lose...and then you'll be stuck buying the winner's player if you want new discs. 3) Both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are only offering bare-bones discs right now. If you don't care about extras I guess this doesn't matter. For those that do, you probably want to wait since I'm sure these initial titles will be re-released with added content.

As far as studio support goes, most studios are supporting both formats with these notable exceptions:
Universal Studios: Exclusive to HD-DVD
20th Century Fox, MGM, and Sony = Exclusive to Blu-Ray
I also know that Blu-Ray holds more information than HD-DVD and that, supposedly, even if the discs get scratched to hell they will still play fine. Initial reviews of Blu-Ray discs are mentioning that the quality is not that much better (if at all) than HD-DVD. This is contrary to Sony's initial claims...which they seem to have a habit of doing lately (see below).

I've seen some people mention the current videogame console war on here as well. This could play an important role in how this plays out.
XBox 360 (HD-DVD): Although it stubbled slightly out of the gate with buggy systems and not enough inventory, the 360 is (IMO) a great machine and is selling well at $399.99. Reportedly, a HD-DVD add-on will be offered for around $250 sometime over the next year. This is a great price if it's specs match stand alone players. Current plans call for only movie playback and no games since that would piss off a lot of people who don't want to spend the extra $250 to play new games.
PlayStation 3 (Blu-Ray): The system is scheduled for release on 11-07-06. I saw someone mention that you can get a PS3 will a Blu-Ray player for $500 - this is only technically true. All PS3's will use Blu-Ray technology but only the $600 model will inlcude HDMI output. This is one of HD and Blu-Rays lesser known facts: If you do not use HDMI (or a go-between to DVI) cables the video will be dumbed down to 480p! This is the same as current DVD capabilities. This was done to help battle piracy since it's harder to copy a digital signal vs. an analog one. Even component video, which is the highest quality output available on most current TV's, is an analog output. Furthermore, pretty much all screen shots Sony showed at last years E3 turned out to be "target videos" and not actual gameplay. Most of their games look no better than what the Xbox 360 has coming down the line over the next year. This was considered a major blow to the PS3's credibility along with the $600 price tag.

Most people thought Blu-Ray had a clear advantage since they would be in PS3 and with Sony currently the title holder for videogame consoles it would be a great way to get them into homes faster than HD-DVD. This new information, however, fogs up the picture. Why spend $600 for a videogame system? Just because of Blu-Ray? I don't think so. First off, I've never used my videogame system as my primary movie player and I don't know many people who do. Also, the Nintendo Wii is scheduled to be released around the same time, has a ton of positive industry and gamer buzz surrounding it (except for it's name which most people hate: "Want to come over and play with my Wii?") and only costs $250. With the inevitible Xbox price drop, you could buy a Nintendo and an Xbox for the same price as one PS3. The PS3 will probably still sell well, however, I think the combination of the price and Nintendo/Microsoft competition will hurt it's sales.

All of this means: WAIT! I would hold off until all studios are on board for one of the players, they cost only a few hundred bucks at the most, and you have a TV that has an HDMI or DVI input. Again, I think current DVD looks great, offers more product for your money, and will be upconverted for a slightly better picture on Blu-Ray/HD-DVD players anyway...so your current collection and anything you buy until you upgrade is safe.

That's it...GO FIRE!

#11 BenBurton

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 06:09 PM

Blu-Ray's the way to go.

#12 Freshmaker

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Posted 26 August 2006 - 11:36 PM

Blu-Ray's the way to go.



Technology wise, yes. But I dont think it makes sense to drop cash on either format until
a winner (in studio support) starts to emerge.

#13 Saeyddthe

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 06:18 AM

That's the point though, isn't it?
I mean, technically, Blu-Ray's vastly superior...
Anyone who thinks that extra 20GB of storage is unnecessary is a moron, or simply isn't "historical" enough to remember cassette→CDa→mp3, VHS→LaserDisc→DVD→DVD9... Plus, the new coating is far more scratch resistant, AND it's distinctly thinner...which is what allows for the increased laser focus (which is how more data can be stored and read in a smaller space)
On the other hand, and as I've mentioned before, they both use the same codecs. That means there is absolutely no 1:1 difference in video quality. It's only the amount of video that can be stored on a single disk that is different.
And and AND!... Have you totally forgotten the compression technology faction? It was only, what...2-3 years between h263/ASP and h264/AVC? And that's already totally integrated...
I mean, if a hypothetical h.886/XXX were suddenly introduced, it'd take a few weeks at most for the first compatible players to be introduced, and then all that extra storage could be used for, what...storing the entire video contents of the Library of Congress?
Whatever your future purchasing choices are, don't base them on some imaginary concept of future "standards"...unless you are terminally ill.
Just wait out the market, and keep your expectations in check. ;)


YiS

#14 projectmayhem

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 09:16 AM

On the other hand, and as I've mentioned before, they both use the same codecs. That means there is absolutely no 1:1 difference in video quality. It's only the amount of video that can be stored on a single disk that is different.


Saeyddthe, thanks for this info. Nothing I've read had given a reason for video quality being identical. It's nice to know. In conversations with employees at audio/video stores, I've had a few drop the "...and Blu-Ray will look even better" line on me. Now I can call them out!

#15 BenBurton

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Posted 27 August 2006 - 06:39 PM

Blu-Ray can (and should) look better. Using the same codec doesn't mean the quality will be the same. It's just like DVDs. Some look better than others.

IF a manufacturer decides to dedicate that extra 20 Gigs to quality, the same 2 hour movie will look better even using the same codec. Think of MP3s and how some are 128Kbits and others are 320Kbits. The same codec, different quality. I expect many Blu-Rays to do just that since they have the space. What we'll see at first is manufacturers using the same video on both discs because it's less work in the studio, but in the long run they'll dedicate different transfers to Blu-Ray because some people will pay a premium for higher quality.

And Sony's decision to use Blu-Ray in the PS3 was announced over a year ago. Microsoft was scared into announcing an HD-DVD add-on to combat the Sony Blu-Ray threat. BUT, Microsoft has announced many times that the add-on will only be for movies and not games. It's what the computer industry calls "FUD". Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Create confusion in the market so your inferior product doesn't lose market share to a superior one.




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