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The Mexican League [R]


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#16 Cristobal Guillermo

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 10:46 PM

Thanks, Caasi, this is a really nice overview. One (very small) thought:

Many argue that the group system should be done away entirely in place of a single table format, and really there's no satisfactory explanation for why they're still around.

Maybe whoever's in charge of this sort of thing figures it's easier on the eyes to check out three groups of six than one long chart of 18 teams?

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#17 Caasi Gohd

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Posted 24 July 2009 - 11:12 PM

Maybe whoever's in charge of this sort of thing figures it's easier on the eyes to check out three groups of six than one long chart of 18 teams?


My guess is... that as you can see from the previous season, where the top 7 qualified + the 12th place team... that they want to generate artificial 'excitement' much the same way that Don Garber has expressed the MLS 'Conferences' serve that purpose.

At 13th place, Jaguares had little to no chance of making the playoffs last season, but their fans kept interested, because as the 2nd place team in a weaksauce group, they managed to sneak in, only to be embarrassed by Pachuca in the first round.

#18 samoabob

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 04:00 AM

----
That's the basic summary of the tournament. Screw you SamoaBob. Next time ask more specific questions, lol.


lol I didn't specify because I really did not know (at all) how the FMF works... It might be interesting to get into this year, if anything its more football to watch. Once again muchos gracias.

#19 stopper

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 10:10 AM

So, I'm assuming Veracruz and Tecos are goners.

UAG has two teams? Estudiantes and Tecos are different, right?

#20 Caasi Gohd

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 10:21 AM

So, I'm assuming Veracruz and Tecos are goners.

UAG has two teams? Estudiantes and Tecos are different, right?


Veracruz is in the secon division. Tecos = Estudiantes UAG. They "rebranded" to try to pick up more support, esp. by focusing on the students at the University, and to try to increase the franchise value.

Whatever. I still want to see them relegated, new look and all. There's really no reason for a 3rd team in Guadalajara.

#21 flava

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 11:02 AM

So the groups are formed FIFA style where the top seeds go first, then the second seeds, etc?

Also, you think that playoffs (i know a few other leagues also have playoffs) and the fact that there are groups could be due to the proximity to the US and its sports system?

Finally, any chance to top teams advocated for the 3 season cumulative relegation system so that they would not be relegated if they have a sucky one season (im thinking club america this past season)?

#22 S.Bones

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 11:25 AM

It seems to me that Mexico has playoffs because, just like MLS, they lack meaningful continental play. Yes, Mexican teams have played in both levels of the South American championships, but only after a cumbersome qualification process, and only a few teams get in

Mexico's relegation process is wildly complex as well, and my understanding is that in previous years, when big clubs have been relegated, their owners bought a small top flight club and came right back in that spot. The result is that it is really hard for a big club to get relegated in Mexico

One could observe that complex structures are easier to manipulate as well.

And am I right in saying that Mexico doesn't have an FA or Open Cup? That means all of the focus is on the season, and playoffs help help keep that focus.


The zombie assumption of the superiority of single table leagues amazes me.

Imagine if England were like MLS, with no relegation and no real continental play (CONCACAF's Champion's league is a burden on teams right now rather than a blessing). When the teams kick off next month, all but 3 or 4 sides will be playing meaningless games from the first whistle.

There's no way the US will ever have pro/rel so any discussion that includes it is, well, kind of stupid.

I'd like to see the US become more like Mexico with a March to June early July season and a late August to November late season, and a match between the two champs at the HDC in early December. In the summer break, MLS teams could host mini-tournaments with pre-season European sides. And we could change the timing of the break in World Cup years.

#23 Caasi Gohd

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 11:39 AM

So the groups are formed FIFA style where the top seeds go first, then the second seeds, etc?

Also, you think that playoffs (i know a few other leagues also have playoffs) and the fact that there are groups could be due to the proximity to the US and its sports system?

Finally, any chance to top teams advocated for the 3 season cumulative relegation system so that they would not be relegated if they have a sucky one season (im thinking club america this past season)?


Yes. On all counts.

#24 L.A. Brigade

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 11:49 AM

Good summary overall, but you missed the strangest and probably shadiest practice in the FMF. Explain the "draft". I understand it to be a free-agency free for all. Is this correct or perhaps a little more complex?

By the way, I know that there's been rumblings about limiting the number of foreign players on rosters, any word on this front?

Probably won't follow the 1st division, but I'll be watching the 1A pretty closely to see if Leon manages to get promoted.

#25 Caasi Gohd

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 01:17 PM

Okay, good question actually.

Lets get one thing perfectly clear. Between Mexican sides there is no such thing as a 'free transfer.' As far as the Mexican League team owners are concerned, FIFA can shove their free transfer rules up their asses.

Before I get to the draft let me talk about the "Gentleman's Agreement" -- the Gentleman's Agreement is a previously unspoken deal between all Primera Division team owners which binds all teams to pay transfer fees for player transfers, including those players whose contracts have expired and who, according to FIFA rules, would be "free agents". Similarly to the concept of "player rights" in US sports, the Agreement also covers players who leave Mexico on free transfers, and later try to return.

This is coming under fire though. Deportivo La Coruña attended the Mexican League Draft trying to unload Omar Bravo and kept finding out that while many teams were interested, Jorge Vergara (Chivas owner) was following La Coruña to every table and letting interested parties know that per the Gentleman's Agreement, there would be transfer fees that would have to be paid for Chivas for Bravo, as the player left on a free transfer to Spain.

Deportivo La Coruña has reported the shady on-goings and apparently CONCACAF is starting to pressure Mexico and it's possible that these shenanigans have even reached FIFA.


The Draft

The draft is essentially another tool that Mexican league owners have put in place to limit the options of players and maximize their own $$$$.

In short, the draft is a two day convention between all first and second division teams (usually in Cancun) during which ALL domestic transfers MUST be made. Players being bought from, or sold abroad may be moved outside of this period but all transfers between Mexican league teams MUST take place within these two days.

Usually owners, presidents, coaches and players are all in attendance for this event and upward of 50 transfers take place during the primary day, with well over 100 transfers usually taking place in the second day (largely focused on the 2nd division).

Relatively simple though incredibly questionable.

#26 L.A. Brigade

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 01:35 PM

Shady indeed.

So, given the way the transfer system works, would it be fair to say that certain ownership groups participate in "insider" trading? Are their still ownership groups that own multiple franchises within the league?

#27 dhines

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 06:19 PM

THE RELEGATION SYSTEM

Grab a pen...

In traditional football, worst team = team relegated.

In Mexican football, the premise is essentially the following: The worst team over the past 3 full years (6 season) gets relegated.

The FMF keeps a Point Per Game average for teams during the past three seasons, and ranks the team accordingly.

The system gets complicated when you introduce teams that are newly promoted (1st year) and teams that were promoted and managed to avoid relegation a year past (2nd year) because their Percentages are more volatile. See the current table HERE.
(If it's incomplete, check it out again at the end of the weekend when all teams have played).

Promotion / Relegation takes place at the end of the fiscal year in the summer. 1 team is relegated, 1 team is promoted.

The 2nd Division (at least until last year) is a complete clusterfuck, so a relegated team may remain in the first division if the team that wins the 2nd division championship is a team which does not meet all the requirements necessary to be qualified as a first division team (usually sister teams and "farm" teams).

I think the FMF finally did away with that though so that all 2nd Division Teams have to be certified and play for promotion. The sister teams and "farm" teams were all put into a league similar to the MLS' reserve league.

not unless this was done in the past few months. reason being, there was a scenario where necaxa could have been relegated and re-promoted without ever leaving the primera. of course that didn't end up happening, but only because the team they needed to win-out, didn't.

#28 Caasi Gohd

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 06:19 PM

Cruz Azul playing Jaguares at Estadio Azul with a downpour. Cruz Azul is one of the teams with big expectations this season, but I think they'll end up disappointing yet again (Sorry, dhines).

La Maquina is down 1-0 in the 20th of the 2nd half.

Brigade, not sure what you mean by "insider" trading, but to your other comment... because of Necaxa's relegation last season, Televisa is now down to two teams (Club America + San Luis).

#29 Caasi Gohd

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 06:25 PM

not unless this was done in the past few months. reason being, there was a scenario where necaxa could have been relegated and re-promoted without ever leaving the premira. of course that didn't end up happening, but only because the team they needed to win-out, didn't.


Yes. the modification was done this off-season.

The Primera A was renamed Liga de Ascenso and all the teams are eligible for poromotion....

Lobos BUAP
Cruz Azul Hidalgo
Durango
Hermosillo
Irapuato
La Piedad
Leon
Merida
Necaxa
Orizaba
Potros Neza
Morelos
Sinaloa
Tijuana
Correcaminos UAT
Leones Negros UDG
Veracruz


#30 dhines

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Posted 25 July 2009 - 06:29 PM

Cruz Azul is one of the teams with big expectations this season, but I think they'll end up disappointing yet again (Sorry, dhines).

so how is this season any different than those over the past 5 - 10 years? cruz azul is probably the most consistently over-hyped team in all of CONCACAF.

Mexico's relegation process is wildly complex as well, and my understanding is that in previous years, when big clubs have been relegated, their owners bought a small top flight club and came right back in that spot. The result is that it is really hard for a big club to get relegated in Mexico

what you are talking about did happen. a few years back, veracruz was relegated . . . but the owners did not want to lose their primera club in veracruz so they bought a newly promoted club, brought them to veracruz and re-branded them to be the exact team that was demoted. additionally, the demoted team was moved to chiapas and eventually came back up to the primera (as jaguars).

caasi please correct/add to where necessary, as i am sure that i am missing important points.




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