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North Korean leader Kim Jong Il dead, state media reports


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#31
metro bomaye!

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Principled in the sense that just a decade later they came up with the ideology of juche? Complete self-reliance in order to stop accumulating debt is what it essentially was. Super protectionism that completely failed.

Principled in that they didn't fall into either the Soviet or PRC camp, they called it like they saw it and their foreign relations suffered for it. The idea of self-reliance was put in place because trading partners were either gone or undependable.

China's imposing sanctions? You have the fastest growing economy in the world right next door who is more than willing to trade with you and you blame US sanctions for all the problems? It has everything to do with keeping outside information from coming into the country. People will start to ask why China is doing better than them and the facade of the Great Leader would begin to collapse.

True, China isn't imposing sanctions, but to say the two countries have been good friends is an oversimplified view IMO. I also think the DPRK doesn't want to be tied too close to China economically lest they lose all economic independence...once a country gets into an economic pattern it's very hard to break out of it.

As far as trying to keep information away from DPRK citizens, the head of the World Health Organization's statements that the DPRK's medical system is the envy of the developing world changes the equation: perhaps western countries don't want Cambodians seeing DPRK hospitals since they will start to ask why their country has so few quality hospitals and the myth of benevolent capitalism would fall apart.

Russian professor who teaches in South Korea, studied Korean history in North Korea. Overall his insights on the North are top notch.

OK neat, I'll check out some of his work if I can find it.

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#32
Calpico

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Principled in that they didn't fall into either the Soviet or PRC camp, they called it like they saw it and their foreign relations suffered for it. The idea of self-reliance was put in place because trading partners were either gone or undependable.


True enough.

True, China isn't imposing sanctions, but to say the two countries have been good friends is an oversimplified view IMO. I also think the DPRK doesn't want to be tied too close to China economically lest they lose all economic independence...once a country gets into an economic pattern it's very hard to break out of it.


You don't have to be the friendliest of nations to trade. And China isn't the only one, Russia shares a border with North Korea as well. Businessmen are dying to get access to North Korea. But no, gotta keep outside information out in order to keep the personality cult going. I can understand staying economically independent, but to the extent that you go through famines every once in a while, that's just ridiculous.

As far as trying to keep information away from DPRK citizens, the head of the World Health Organization's statements that the DPRK's medical system is the envy of the developing world changes the equation: perhaps western countries don't want Cambodians seeing DPRK hospitals since they will start to ask why their country has so few quality hospitals and the myth of benevolent capitalism would fall apart.


Wow. You realize how heavily guided those tours are right?
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#33
JBigjake54

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#34
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#35
Paul Nasta

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"Here are the two most shattering facts about North Korea. First, when viewed by satellite photography at night, it is an area of unrelieved darkness. Barely a scintilla of light is visible even in the capital city. (See this famous photograph.) Second, a North Korean is on average six inches shorter than a South Korean. You may care to imagine how much surplus value has been wrung out of such a slave, and for how long, in order to feed and sustain the militarized crime family that completely owns both the country and its people."

http://www.slate.com...t_dwarfs.2.html

#36
metros11

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I found this more interesting:

The whole idea of communism is dead in North Korea, and its most recent "Constitution," "ratified" last April, has dropped all mention of the word.

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#37
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I found this more interesting:

The whole idea of communism is dead in North Korea, and its most recent "Constitution," "ratified" last April, has dropped all mention of the word.

And the US Constitution has no mention of the word "capitalist". What's your point?

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#38
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You don't have to be the friendliest of nations to trade. And China isn't the only one, Russia shares a border with North Korea as well. Businessmen are dying to get access to North Korea. But no, gotta keep outside information out in order to keep the personality cult going. I can understand staying economically independent, but to the extent that you go through famines every once in a while, that's just ridiculous.

Well, the DPRK is trying to work with businesses to bring investment...it's hard to do with the sanctions but they're trying. And for all the DPRK's economic issues the famines you're referring to happened in the 90's and are hopefully behind them.

Wow. You realize how heavily guided those tours are right?

The man is an expert in the field, I highly doubt he would make such a statement without strong foundation.

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#39
metros11

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And for all the DPRK's economic issues the famines you're referring to happened in the 90's and are hopefully behind them.

According to the UN a quarter of the nation is still starving.

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#40
Calpico

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Well, the DPRK is trying to work with businesses to bring investment...it's hard to do with the sanctions but they're trying. And for all the DPRK's economic issues the famines you're referring to happened in the 90's and are hopefully behind them.


China and Russia do not have sanctions on Korea and businessmen in both country are eager to open up shop in North Korea.


The man is an expert in the field, I highly doubt he would make such a statement without strong foundation.


An expert in judging medical technologies and medical care. Sure. But it's not like the guy did some sort of thorough study of North Korea's medical system. Most likely they showed him a hospital in Pyongyang and that was pretty much it. Testimony from defectors shows that Pyongyang is by far the most developed and wealthiest city in North Korea in stark contrast to other areas of the country.
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#41
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China and Russia do not have sanctions on Korea and businessmen in both country are eager to open up shop in North Korea.

I may have to check in this case, but US embargoes are extraterritorial, which means that any business that does business with a sanctioned country is denied trade with the US. I'm fairly certain that's the case here, and it's a strong influence for a lot of firms who are forced to choose between the US market and investing in the DPRK. But as we can see here, the DPRK does want to open up and promote investment.

An expert in judging medical technologies and medical care. Sure. But it's not like the guy did some sort of thorough study of North Korea's medical system. Most likely they showed him a hospital in Pyongyang and that was pretty much it. Testimony from defectors shows that Pyongyang is by far the most developed and wealthiest city in North Korea in stark contrast to other areas of the country.

Well we can't know for sure, but all I'm saying is that I don't think the guy wouldn't make such a statement spuriously. Others can disagree, but I think he had solid foundation for the claim.

As for Pyongyang, that's not much different from other countries where the capital is far and away the most important city. For example, a country like Azerbaijan has Baku which is becoming a major regional hub and then...not much after that. It's only natural that the same might occur in the DPRK.

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#42
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According to the UN a quarter of the nation is still starving.

Any source on that?

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#43
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Any source on that?

What's the point? He provides a source and you say, "Capitalist media" or "Capitalist Imperialist Rootin' Tootin' Study done by Fat Greedy Corporate Pigs."

This goes on in a circle infinitely. We get it. Communist countries do not wrong.

#44
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Any source on that?


From July, 2011:

http://www.telegraph...e-starving.html

"The UN's World Food Programme says North Korea faces its worst food shortage in a decade, with six million people at risk - a consequence of poor economic management of its centrally planned system, a series of bad harvests caused by harsh winters, flooding and exhausted agricultural land, and the regime's unwillingness to spend its dwindling hard currency reserves on buying food for its 24 million people."

It's notable that the UN doesn't cite U.S. sanctions as one of the causes of North Korea's current food shortage.

#45
Did I Do That?

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From July, 2011:

http://www.telegraph...e-starving.html

"The UN's World Food Programme says North Korea faces its worst food shortage in a decade, with six million people at risk - a consequence of poor economic management of its centrally planned system, a series of bad harvests caused by harsh winters, flooding and exhausted agricultural land, and the regime's unwillingness to spend its dwindling hard currency reserves on buying food for its 24 million people."

It's notable that the UN doesn't cite U.S. sanctions as one of the causes of North Korea's current food shortage.

Get ready.




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