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#2116
gprime85

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i'm confused, and maybe somebody can help my weak little mind fully understand this concept: why is it that these guys who were in the bush administration were total asshats while working for him, yet now they come out and not only make sense when they talk, seem to actually be reasonable people?

tom ridge on the daily show. the ideas he brings up in his new book are actually pretty progressive compared to bush's foreign policy. it's like why the hell couldn't you be saying this shit 4 fucking years ago?! like jon put it "i look forward to seeing you run for the presidency as the socialist candidate."
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#2117
SteveB2

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As long as your name was Carnegie, Rockefeller or Vanderbilt that 200 years was a scream.



Which is why MILLIONS of people voted with their feet and came here. Take a look at the actual economic prosperity and living standards for the average American during that time as opposed to the average German/Italian/Englishman/Russian/Frenchman etc.

You are looking back at that time period with modern eyes and comparing it to today. That is apples and oranges. Why not compare it to actual events on the ground at that time.

What were the numbers for economic growth between say the end of the Civil War and the turn of the century and then compare those to the numbers from the turn of the century until Pearl Harbor.

#2118
betoAYAK

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Which is why MILLIONS of people voted with their feet and came here. Take a look at the actual economic prosperity and living standards for the average American during that time as opposed to the average German/Italian/Englishman/Russian/Frenchman etc.

You are looking back at that time period with modern eyes and comparing it to today. That is apples and oranges. Why not compare it to actual events on the ground at that time.

What were the numbers for economic growth between say the end of the Civil War and the turn of the century and then compare those to the numbers from the turn of the century until Pearl Harbor.

much of europe was still living under fading feudalism and was pre-industrial. if you're praising the virtues of the industrialization of the american economy at that time then surely you must be a huge fan of the soviet model for industrialization. they went from horse and cart feudalism to world industrial superpower in about 30 years. in this discussion, the term "economic prosperity" is a misnomer. I'm not even going to get into modern day China...
You're a fucking monkey.
QUOTE (NittanyMetros @ Mar 17 2011, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It seems Philly fans have signed up on metrofanatic to vote for themselves (in 'What team do you hate more?') . No real fan of this team would vote anything other than DC.

#2119
SteveB2

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Beto, between 1865 and 1900 I will grant that Russia was semi-feudal with serfdom eliminated late [1880 something I think] but are you going to seriously say that Prussia/Germany, England, and France [leaving aside the low countries for the moment] were not industrialized?

Compare economic opportunity, standards of living and political freedom in the USA at that time compared to the same in the industrialized west of the same era.

And I am not a big fan of Soviet forms of industrialization. The murder of 24 million people doesn't get me all warm and toasty.


People can say whatever they want but when they vote with their feet it is the strongest possible statement.

#2120
betoAYAK

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Beto, between 1865 and 1900 I will grant that Russia was semi-feudal with serfdom eliminated late [1880 something I think] but are you going to seriously say that Prussia/Germany, England, and France [leaving aside the low countries for the moment] were not industrialized?

Compare economic opportunity, standards of living and political freedom in the USA at that time compared to the same in the industrialized west of the same era.

And I am not a big fan of Soviet forms of industrialization. The murder of 24 million people doesn't get me all warm and toasty.


People can say whatever they want but when they vote with their feet it is the strongest possible statement.

ok, now we're talking. when you say that the US promised economic opportunity, better standards of living and political freedom, you are saying that relative to the conditions that many europeans found themselves in. therefore, many left their homelands to come here.

murdering millions of people in order to become a superpower in under a generation as the soviets did is certainly not commendable as you astutely remarked, but then where is the objections to the eggs that were cracked to make the american omelette (namely the native americans, africans and others)?

what makes one better than the other? certainly, those benefits you speak of were not afforded to the millions of native americans who perished while the european settlers strong armed their way into their territories. america was literally built on the backs of millions of slaves who weren't even granted the status of human being before being forced to work on their masters' very profitable plantation until their deaths.

These events went on for much, much longer and disturbed countless of societies that to this day are still feeling the effects of manifest destiny and chattel slavery which is more than can be said about the millions who died in the gulags of soviet russia. both economic empires did create alot of wealth and prosperity, but both also created immeasurable human misery that affected people globally to this day.

Along with the reasons you gave, many immigrants primarily came because their countries were unstable and to escape the poverty which was created by war and/or exploitation by the very same country they were now immigrating to.

That is the unregulated free market in action. Expand the market and open opportunities for economic growth (for yourself) at the expense of others. The US has been the best at this for quite some time, but its economic empire is still an empire. All empires throughout history has fallen. Why should this one be any different?

Just because we've had a pretty good run overall, doesn't mean things won't change. Things are changing quickly-drastically even, and for arguably the greatest civilization to ever exist, it must also change and quickly adapt because continuing with the same pattern is unsustainable and unfeasible.

We're akin to an aging sports star. There are new, younger stars who grew up watching you, learning what you did right and improving on it, and seeing where you went wrong . Some are bigger, stronger than you ever were, yet you have the accumulated wisdom of being the best and adjust your game in order to remain competitive and in some instances, remain the best. If you're not willing to or are unable to adjust, you go down in a flaming pile of resentment and failure like Claudio Reyna.
You're a fucking monkey.
QUOTE (NittanyMetros @ Mar 17 2011, 01:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It seems Philly fans have signed up on metrofanatic to vote for themselves (in 'What team do you hate more?') . No real fan of this team would vote anything other than DC.




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