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#31 josh24601

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 10:49 PM

I fear you are right though...hence the concern I expressed earlier over the Khitomer Massacre. The Klingons have been totally re-imagined, and without seeing the cut scenes, it's hard to say what JJ Abrams has in mind. I hope Josh's opinion that JJ Abrams viewpoint on time is that it all somehow goes in the 'correct' path regardless what happens leaves us with a Worf, because I like the dude, too.


What is it with you and the Khitomer Massacre? It happens like 100 years from when the movie happened. Plenty of time for the Romulans to surprise attack the Klingons.

And they weren't even in this movie save a reference about losing a big ol' showdown with Nero's ship.

Again, all the characters we know and love are going to be in this timeline. They didn't make a new movie without Spock for a reason.

Hopefully in this timeline, Kirk gets a decent freaking death.

#32 josh24601

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 10:59 PM

sex apparently not one of them... <_<


i've been saving up my comics to read during spring break...

it's now spring break for me...


i'll update soon


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#33 Gen'Buck'Turgidson

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 11:20 PM

What is it with you and the Khitomer Massacre? It happens like 100 years from when the movie happened. Plenty of time for the Romulans to surprise attack the Klingons.

And they weren't even in this movie save a reference about losing a big ol' showdown with Nero's ship.

Again, all the characters we know and love are going to be in this timeline. They didn't make a new movie without Spock for a reason.

Hopefully in this timeline, Kirk gets a decent freaking death.

Don't let tracer get to you, Josh.
I like Worf. Worf is created by the Khitomer massacre...There you go. I knew you could do it!
Klingons WERE in this movie, but they got cut out...
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The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which "unskilled people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average.

#34 josh24601

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 11:24 PM

Don't let tracer get to you, Josh.
I like Worf. Worf is created by the Khitomer massacre...There you go. I knew you could do it!
Klingons WERE in this movie, but they got cut out...


Tracer doesn't get to me, I just like to beat him in internet forum battles.

Don't worry, Worf is gonna be okay.

I like my SPECIES the way it IS!

#35 Cristobal Guillermo

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 10:20 AM

Well the real funny thing is that Archer would be like 130 or so when the Enterprise launched. So just go with it and give them a bit of wiggle room :)

That's not even a small problem; the TNG pilot had a cameo appearance by Bones at age 137:
Posted Image



But this movie followed Spock through the wormhole and into an alternate universe. As far as we've seen, the "future" (TNG, DS9, etc) hasn't happened yet in that universe (it hasn't been shown). And new alternate adventures are facing the NCC-1701.


Well, we are then starting to pile up the number of universes to keep track of:
Posted ImagePosted ImagePosted Image

However, that's not the way things have worked in the past of Trek's standard universe: As episodes like "The City on the Edge of Forever" and "Yesterday's Enterprise" make clear, going back in time and messing around with the timeline causes the current timeline to go poof, leading to alien Nazis and all sorts of other abominations:
Posted Image

Maybe the comic you cite establishes that this is an alternate universe, but I can't think where the movie makes that clear.

Meh, Nero is a Romulan name... Otherwise why would there be a Romulan named Nero? :D Seriously though, you have a race of beings named after Romulus and Remus, from an ancient Earth legend. That makes sense, but one of them named Nero is a crazy thing??


It's just that the name had to come from a writer - a writer with, as it appears, an unbelievably superficial grasp of Roman history.

Proud "been a fan since '96" douchenozzle


Cogito me cogitare, ergo cogito me esse. Et futuito istam pullam!


http://www.nybooks.c.../15/our-moloch/


#36 Gen'Buck'Turgidson

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 07:09 PM

Furthermore, it's not at all unusual that HUMAN's would refer to the twin planets, any twin planets, as Romulus & Remus or Mary Kate & Ashley, but it WOULD be weird as hell if the Romulans called themselves that. JJ fucked up in a way that most non-fans wouldn't care about, but we would and should. Plain and simple.

Again, the Japan/Nippon, Germany/Deutschland thing.
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#37 Ben7

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 09:50 PM

according to Star Trek 2009 - this movie is creating a new universe and not necessarily wiping out the old one(s)

read or see The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene for some basics and present knowledge - it is fascinating

#38 josh24601

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 10:01 PM

That\'s not even a small problem; the TNG pilot had a cameo appearance by Bones at age 137:

True, but I always figured that to be an incredible exception, not the norm. Either way, yeah, I am willing to bet that Archer had a couple new beagles since Ent.

However, that\'s not the way things have worked in the past of Trek\'s standard universe: As episodes like \"The City on the Edge of Forever\" and \"Yesterday\'s Enterprise\" make clear, going back in time and messing around with the timeline causes the current timeline to go poof, leading to alien Nazis and all sorts of other abominations:


Time travel and alternate universes have worked *many* different ways in the storytelling history of Trek, it depends what episode you are watching. However, in those episodes you cite, they went back and forth through time on the same timeline.

This movie followed Spock through a singularity, and the movie took place on the reality he found on the other side of it.

Maybe the comic you cite establishes that this is an alternate universe, but I can\'t think where the movie makes that clear.


Yeah, Spock makes it pretty clear. The comic just shows everything he's doing before he falls into the singularity from the old timeline to this one. They basically wrote it for people like us who would be having a conversation like this, because a regular person wouldn't care and would just have fun watching young Kirk.

Along with Ben\'s book, click here.

And yes, the Mirror Universe is another example of this. Basically think of the TNG episode Parallels.

#39 tracer

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 10:03 PM

Tracer doesn't get to me, I just like to beat him in internet forum battles.

Don't worry, Worf is gonna be okay.

I like my SPECIES the way it IS!


:pint:

Team Tucker: You might be cool, but I am ZERO cool.  Foo


#40 josh24601

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Posted 17 May 2009 - 10:07 PM

Furthermore, it's not at all unusual that HUMAN's would refer to the twin planets, any twin planets, as Romulus & Remus or Mary Kate & Ashley, but it WOULD be weird as hell if the Romulans called themselves that. JJ fucked up in a way that most non-fans wouldn't care about, but we would and should. Plain and simple.

Again, the Japan/Nippon, Germany/Deutschland thing.


So what do Romulans call themselves?

Klingons are from Qo'nos.

#41 Gen'Buck'Turgidson

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 01:53 AM

So what do Romulans call themselves?

Klingons are from Qo'nos.

No se, amigo. I guess you'd have to ask a Romulan. Ditto for Vulcans, and Orions, etc. Earthocentric names...tsk tsk.
Before it got a name in TNG, Qo'nos was simply known as 'the Klingon homeworld', was it not?
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The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which "unskilled people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average.

#42 josh24601

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 02:07 AM

No se, amigo. I guess you'd have to ask a Romulan. Ditto for Vulcans, and Orions, etc. Earthocentric names...tsk tsk.
Before it got a name in TNG, Qo'nos was simply known as 'the Klingon homeworld', was it not?


Si. Plus I also forgot, they have a similar political structure to Ancient Rome. Senators, Praetors, Proconsul, etc.

Posted Image

Proconsul Neral, from Unification.

Neral, Nero. Very similar.

I say, a consistent Romulan name and a nice wink to the Roman aesthetic of the race.

God Tracer was right.

#43 josh24601

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Posted 18 May 2009 - 11:40 AM

Speaketh JJ:


"The fun of this [new alternate 'Trek' reality] is that the destiny of these characters is in their hands — it's not constrained by the pre-existing films or TV series," the "Lost" mastermind explained. "Believe me, whether it's William Shatner or Khan ... it would be ridiculous to not be open to those ideas."

..."One of the reasons we wanted to break with the original 'Star Trek' timeline was it felt restrictive," Abrams said of the plot device that could conceivably fuel the venerable series for another five decades. "The idea, now that we are in an independent timeline, allows us to use any of the ingredients from the past — or come up with brand-new ones — to make potential stories."

..."It'll be fun to hear what Alex and Bob are thinking about Khan," Abrams said of their impending meetings to discuss sequel plotlines. "The fun of this timeline is arguing that different stories, with the same characters, could be equally if not more compelling than what's been told before."

"[Khan and Kirk] exist — and while their history may not be exactly as people are familiar with, I would argue that a person's character is what it is," Abrams said of the notion that his Khan could be just as evil, even if Kirk never stranded him on Ceti Alpha V. "Certain people are destined to cross paths and come together, and Khan is out there ... even if he doesn't have the same issues."

..."I wouldn't rule out anything," Abrams said of a possible flash-forward that could make up for Shatner's near-miss inclusion in the new film. "The point of creating this independent timeline is to not have the restrictions we had coming into this one. And one of those restrictions was that Kirk was dead."



#44 josh24601

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Posted 20 May 2009 - 02:20 PM

****SPOILERS FOR "FRINGE" THAT RELATE TO TREK MOVIE - DONT READ IF YOU WANT TO WATCH FRINGE****


So the end of the season on Fringe - the TV show helmed by the same writers/director as Star Trek (Abrams, Kurtzman, Orci) - introduced a new plotline for next season: multiple realities that the characters are crossing into and out of. Hah.

And for the uber geeks like me who love Fringe and the Trek movie and realized that they are using the same plot device for both of the stories, they threw us a bone.

Clint Howard (see Balok in Buck's post earlier) played a conspiracy nut in a cameo who tried to convince our heroes that he was Spock trying to uncover a plot by renegade Romulans from the future who are trying to distort our timeline. To those that didn't get the joke it was just a funny little nutty guy moment, but was a great inside joke to those that got it.

If you don't watch Fringe, it's a kick ass show.

As you were.

#45 Gen'Buck'Turgidson

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Posted 21 May 2009 - 12:26 PM

Point of order: In the timeline created by Nero dropping into George Kirk's lap, the SS Botany Bay has been in space for a few decades already, so Khan is most definitely 'on the table'. His timeline and progression shoul dnot be affected at all, barring the wormhole that brought Nero didn't actually swallow the Botany Bay when it opened, the odds of which would be astronomical.

****SPOILERS FOR "FRINGE" THAT RELATE TO TREK MOVIE - DONT READ IF YOU WANT TO WATCH FRINGE****


So the end of the season on Fringe - the TV show helmed by the same writers/director as Star Trek (Abrams, Kurtzman, Orci) - introduced a new plotline for next season: multiple realities that the characters are crossing into and out of. Hah.

And for the uber geeks like me who love Fringe and the Trek movie and realized that they are using the same plot device for both of the stories, they threw us a bone.

Clint Howard (see Balok in Buck's post earlier) played a conspiracy nut in a cameo who tried to convince our heroes that he was Spock trying to uncover a plot by renegade Romulans from the future who are trying to distort our timeline. To those that didn't get the joke it was just a funny little nutty guy moment, but was a great inside joke to those that got it.

If you don't watch Fringe, it's a kick ass show.

As you were.

I saw that...pretty funny. Fringe is pretty good. My wife loves the mad scientist dad.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
-H. L. Mencken
----------------------
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which "unskilled people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average.




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