Jump to content

Loans within the league


  • Please log in to reply
28 replies to this topic

#16
iced1776

iced1776

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,599 posts
  • Supports:NY Red Bulls, FC Barcelona

How much value would we actually anticipate for a guy who isn't MLS-ready, even if he's dominating USL? Do we know what we got out of the Brandon Allen loan last season? I can't imagine it was more than a drop in the proverbial ocean of MLS funny money.

 

Loans would be pretty harmless as long as we have the option to recall the player if need be, and the other MLS team actually intends to play them. But how often is an MLS team desperate enough to look at another team's reserve players to fill a starting spot?

 

Its not a disaster or even necessarily a problem if a decent number of young players come and go from the system without ever breaking into the first team, its just the nature of the beast. A guy like Yanes was mentioned here, its not like we paid a transfer fee or housed him in the academy for years, so there's no desperate need to recoup any investment.



#17
Voice of Reason II

Voice of Reason II

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,834 posts

Exactly, so if you don't find a place for them to play, there's a risk they'll leave for free like Palmer-Brown.  Then, whatever money the team invested in their development I stone.  You might get a guy to sign if he knows he'll go out on loan and have a shot to play now and have the ability to come back to Red Bull in the future.

RBNY already does what you are suggesting. It's just not always a loan.

We had strong depth at midfield, but a weakness at CB, so we traded Felipe for Parker. 

Meara worked out because it was an expansion situation. Not sure it would have happened otherwise.

Allen was essentially a sale, but Minny wasn't ready to commit without a "trial", so it was structured as a loan with an option to buy.

Abang was a legitimate loan. Easy to do because it was outside MLS.

 

Most loans are to different leagues, not as often to in league rivals.

 

Loans within MLS are uncommon because most clubs don't want to commit resources to developing a young player only to see them return to their home club just as they are starting to click. 

 

If we have too many "starters" for any one position we are more likely to trade/sell one of them. This club has a zero history of letting any player rot on the bench. 

 

Finally, back to my original assertion: we would be nuts to loan out any player that was a key backup.



#18
thoward18

thoward18

    Player/Manager

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 2,028 posts
  • Supports:Metro

We've been getting rid of old players to make room for young players.  But, what happens when young players are ready, and the guy in front of them is 26 not 30+ like Dax and Sacha were?

 

I can't comment Yanes because I haven't watched him enough to make a judgement.

 

But as a hypothetical, you would loan Yanes out if he was significantly better than Lade, but not quite as good as Taxi, and deserves to a starting LB in MLS.  First, it's the right thing to do by the player.  Second, if you stick him behind Taxi, you risk losing him on a free the way SKC lost Palmer-Brown.  Lade did not play this season to make a starting MLS LB.  Again, I'm not saying Yanes fits this description.  It's just a hypothetical.

We've already pretty much seen this, though. Davis and Adams basically went on split duty between USL and MLS. The team has proven that if you are a young player who has proven himself in USL then you will eventually get a chance. If at some point we start losing players because the roster is too stacked to find room then I'll consider it a massive success. 



#19
elf

elf

    Player/Manager

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 4,405 posts
  • Supports:Metrostars
At some point the older depth players will get replaced if there is too much talent in the reserves

#20
McSoccer

McSoccer

    Player/Manager

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,624 posts
  • Location:NJ
  • Supports:New York Red Bulls, Arsenal

RBNY already does what you are suggesting. It's just not always a loan.
We had strong depth at midfield, but a weakness at CB, so we traded Felipe for Parker. 
Meara worked out because it was an expansion situation. Not sure it would have happened otherwise.
Allen was essentially a sale, but Minny wasn't ready to commit without a "trial", so it was structured as a loan with an option to buy.
Abang was a legitimate loan. Easy to do because it was outside MLS.
 
Most loans are to different leagues, not as often to in league rivals.
 
Loans within MLS are uncommon because most clubs don't want to commit resources to developing a young player only to see them return to their home club just as they are starting to click. 
 
If we have too many "starters" for any one position we are more likely to trade/sell one of them. This club has a zero history of letting any player rot on the bench. 
 
Finally, back to my original assertion: we would be nuts to loan out any player that was a key backup.

What if there wasnt a Parker trade out for Felipe? Sure if theres a good trade out there take it. But if theres not, do you let guys dominate USL or rot on the bench?

I dont know if that situation exists, but, based on how well academy and USL guys have done in MLS, its coming. Maybe it wont matter because enough guys will go to Europe (Adams, Murillo?) and open up space.

#21
Voice of Reason II

Voice of Reason II

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,834 posts

What if there wasnt a Parker trade out for Felipe? Sure if theres a good trade out there take it. But if theres not, do you let guys dominate USL or rot on the bench?

I dont know if that situation exists, but, based on how well academy and USL guys have done in MLS, its coming. Maybe it wont matter because enough guys will go to Europe (Adams, Murillo?) and open up space.

The top teams in the world never worry about "too much talent". They loan their players to leagues that are "USL equivalents" to them, but rarely to teams in their own league. 

 

No one is rotting in RBNY or RBNYII.



#22
iced1776

iced1776

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,599 posts
  • Supports:NY Red Bulls, FC Barcelona

What if there wasnt a Parker trade out for Felipe? Sure if theres a good trade out there take it. But if theres not, do you let guys dominate USL or rot on the bench?

I dont know if that situation exists, but, based on how well academy and USL guys have done in MLS, its coming. Maybe it wont matter because enough guys will go to Europe (Adams, Murillo?) and open up space.

 

You do exactly what the team is doing now with guys like Casseres, Ndam, Kutler, and Mines. Sign them to the senior roster, have them play with the USL team, and call them up when injuries, suspensions, or schedule congestion make room for them. That's four teenagers playing different positions who all got time to shine in MLS, despite being behind one of the best starting XI in league history.

 

I think you're a little overly concerned about this hypothetical USL superstar who just can't possibly find first team minutes and grows resentful towards the club unless he's loaned out that very instant. Even as academies and USL continue to improve, that will be an exceedingly rare situation.



#23
McSoccer

McSoccer

    Player/Manager

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,624 posts
  • Location:NJ
  • Supports:New York Red Bulls, Arsenal

The top teams in the world never worry about "too much talent". They loan their players to leagues that are "USL equivalents" to them, but rarely to teams in their own league.

First, we are not one of the top teams in the world. And, top teams in the world do loan players to other top teams in the world - see James Rodriguez Liams from a Madrid to Bayern.

Second, its easier in Europe to loan a player to a different league when the countries arent that far away. Loans happen within the Prem a decent amount too though (Wilshere, Jenkinson, Sturridge, Abraham, Loftus-Cheeks). That said, we could loan players to Mexican teams.
 

No one is rotting in RBNY or RBNYII.

No, it is not happening now. Does that mean it wont? Are you saying you cant envison a situation where a it will? A situation where a player is 22 and ready, but the player in front of him is only 25? You want that player to ride the bench or stay in USL for three years until their contract is up and they leave for free.

Yanes is 21 now. Hell be on the first team next year behind Taxi. Assume Taxi has another great season in 2019 and is here again in 2020. Yanes would be 23 at that point, I know guys with the MLS 1.0 mindset think that is still young, but its not.

#24
Voice of Reason II

Voice of Reason II

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,834 posts

First, we are not one of the top teams in the world. And, top teams in the world do loan players to other top teams in the world - see James Rodriguez Liams from a Madrid to Bayern.

Second, its easier in Europe to loan a player to a different league when the countries arent that far away. Loans happen within the Prem a decent amount too though (Wilshere, Jenkinson, Sturridge, Abraham, Loftus-Cheeks). That said, we could loan players to Mexican teams.
 
No, it is not happening now. Does that mean it wont? Are you saying you cant envison a situation where a it will? A situation where a player is 22 and ready, but the player in front of him is only 25? You want that player to ride the bench or stay in USL for three years until their contract is up and they leave for free.

Yanes is 21 now. Hell be on the first team next year behind Taxi. Assume Taxi has another great season in 2019 and is here again in 2020. Yanes would be 23 at that point, I know guys with the MLS 1.0 mindset think that is still young, but its not.

Atletico Madrid and Bayern aren't in the same league, but be that as it may...

 

Let's assume that Yanes is ahead of Lade in the LB depth chart behind Kemar next year. You would prefer to keep the 3rd string player and loan out the #2? Kemar would be expected to play nearly every game, never be on national team duty and never get injured? And if he did you would want the lesser of two players to be our go to guy when Kemar can't play?  :blink:

 

Time for this thread to go to the dead horse forum.  :deadhorse:



#25
McSoccer

McSoccer

    Player/Manager

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,624 posts
  • Location:NJ
  • Supports:New York Red Bulls, Arsenal

Atletico Madrid and Bayern aren't in the same league, but be that as it may...
 
Let's assume that Yanes is ahead of Lade in the LB depth chart behind Kemar next year. You would prefer to keep the 3rd string player and loan out the #2? Kemar would be expected to play nearly every game, never be on national team duty and never get injured? And if he did you would want the lesser of two players to be our go to guy when Kemar can't play?  :blink:
 
Time for this thread to go to the dead horse forum.  :deadhorse:

James is signed with Real, not Atleit. And, that was an example of top teams in the worldinning out major talents, not loans within a league.

I said I would have Yanes play behind Taxi for a year. Its the second or third year of being a backup that details young players developments and careers.

#26
Voice of Reason II

Voice of Reason II

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,834 posts

James is signed with Real, not Atleit. And, that was an example of top teams in the worldinning out major talents, not loans within a league.

I said I would have Yanes play behind Taxi for a year. Its the second or third year of being a backup that details young players developments and careers.

You had said "a Madrid", so i thought you had meant Atletico, but anyways...

 

Final comment: Of any team in the MLS, RBNY is doing a better job of developing talent than any other and using all mechanisms, including loans, to further their players' careers. Which includes not standing in their way when they desire to move on to a greater challenge.

 

So I guess bottom line is I have no idea what your beef is. They have faced a number of tough roster decisions, usually to the benefit of the up and comers, and have not shied away from making them. They seem to be doing exactly what you want them to do. As they get even better at developing talent (includes finding the Casseres, etc, not just true homegrowns) they will likely have even tougher decisions going forward. That is a nice problem to have as others have pointed out. 

 

Over and out!



#27
McSoccer

McSoccer

    Player/Manager

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,624 posts
  • Location:NJ
  • Supports:New York Red Bulls, Arsenal

You had said "a Madrid", so i thought you had meant Atletico, but anyways...

 

Final comment: Of any team in the MLS, RBNY is doing a better job of developing talent than any other and using all mechanisms, including loans, to further their players' careers. Which includes not standing in their way when they desire to move on to a greater challenge.

 

So I guess bottom line is I have no idea what your beef is. They have faced a number of tough roster decisions, usually to the benefit of the up and comers, and have not shied away from making them. They seem to be doing exactly what you want them to do. As they get even better at developing talent (includes finding the Casseres, etc, not just true homegrowns) they will likely have even tougher decisions going forward. That is a nice problem to have as others have pointed out. 

 

Over and out!

You were writing stuff that suggesting you are well versed on the "top teams in the world" and how they handle loans, so I assumed you would know Rodriguez, one of the "top players in the world", was a Real Madrid player.



#28
Voice of Reason II

Voice of Reason II

    Dir. of Football Operations

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 6,834 posts

You were writing stuff that suggesting you are well versed on the "top teams in the world" and how they handle loans, so I assumed you would know Rodriguez, one of the "top players in the world", was a Real Madrid player.

Keep picking nits LOL

 

I have never claimed to know where all of the top players in the world play. But if this is your big "gotcha" moment, you can have it.

 

I don't know how I will ever live down the shame of not knowing which team James plays on... :P



#29
McSoccer

McSoccer

    Player/Manager

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3,624 posts
  • Location:NJ
  • Supports:New York Red Bulls, Arsenal

Keep picking nits LOL

 

I have never claimed to know where all of the top players in the world play. But if this is your big "gotcha" moment, you can have it.

 

I don't know how I will ever live down the shame of not knowing which team James plays on... :P

There's no shame in not knowing the team James in loaned from.  And, there's no shame in not knowing there are a number of loans every year within top leagues or not knowing that "top teams in the world" often don't let young starting caliber players sit on the bench for more than a year before loaning to other "top teams in the world" or selling.

 

I think this is the crux of our difference in opinion:

I 100% agree we will be a stringer team in 2020 (two years from now) with Yanes on the bench for a SECOND season behind Taxi.  That points inarguable.  What I look at 2021 and beyond.  Now maybe Yanes doesn't resign and then Taxi leaves 2021 or 2022.  On loan, Yanes is still under contract and you could slide him.  Or, maybe the next great youth or USL player signs with City or Philly because he plays the same position as Kaku and he doesn't want to be a backup for more than a year, like Yanes was.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users