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#1 Gen'Buck'Turgidson

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 01:16 PM

First of all, the [R] on the thread is because you will get spoilers in this thread.
DON'T READ IT IF YOU DON'T WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IN THE MOVIE!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

This whole thread may be a Corbomite Maneuver, and yes, trek is corny as hell, but JJ Abrams has really breathed new life into the crusty old canon.

Anybody interested in chatting about it? I'll share a glass of tranya with you if you do.
Posted Image

I'm fully ramped up on the lore of the original series, Next Gen, the movies, and the rest of the series'.

For the record, I've never believed in 'No-Win Scenarios' either.

FAKE EDIT: I'm a little scared about when Josh takes over this thread. His analytical skills are like Klingon Disruptors: the only setting they have is disintegrate.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
-H. L. Mencken
----------------------
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which "unskilled people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average.

#2 josh24601

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 01:25 PM

FAKE EDIT: I'm a little scared about when Josh takes over this thread. His analytical skills are like Klingon Disruptors: the only setting they have is disintegrate.


You think my Lost stuff is bad, start a Trek thread.

Seriously though, I really could blow the forum up here, so I'll just keep it simple and say I'm a huge Trekkie and I was very nervous about it, and I fuckin loved it.

Have you read Star Trek: Countdown? They made a series of short comics that told Nero's and Spock's backstory, pretty cool. Spock narrates in the mind meld how it all happened - this is that story.

We get Admiral Picard, Capt. Data of the USS Enterprise E, etc. helping Spock, and see him and Nero sucked into the singularity he creates.

If you have an iPhone, you can download them straight into it.

Anyways, I will not bust out an essay here unless completely provoked. But like I said in a different thread, find me in Lot 13 if you want to hear a very cool Star Trek story of mine related to this movie from when I used to work at Paramount.

#3 AnthonyNHB

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 01:25 PM

Meh. Bring back the tribbles.
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#4 josh24601

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 01:27 PM

Meh. Bring back the tribbles.


Take a closer look at the scene where we first meet Scotty.

#5 Gen'Buck'Turgidson

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 01:31 PM

Some thought starters:
When we first see Nero (stupid name for a Romulan), he is a youngish dude. 25 years later we see him again, and without any explanation, he has a bit of his right ear torn off, and what looks like scars from a head plate that had since been removed.

It could be injuries as a result of the Kelvin ramming his ship and causing extensive damage, but it could also be a multitude of things that happened in the 25 years that passed between the encounter with the Kelvin and teh Enterprise engaging his vessel, not the least of which would be the 46 klingon ship fleet Nero destroyed shortly before Starfleet Academy empties it's classrooms to engage the 'lightning storm'.

In resetting the timeline with his appearance, not only did Nero screw up Kirk's life, but the Klingon Penal Colony destruction would have altered the coming Federation-Klingon war, the Khitomer Massacre and all that crap.

Why did he go to the Klingon system anyway? Nero's ship is mining vessel full of planetary geologists. How the hell would they know where and when Spock would reappear? They probably needed some kind of space/time physicists help to understand where Spock's appearance would be. Maybe they got the help form the Klingon's?

Needless to say, timelines for Klingon, Vulcan and Earth are all totally screwed up now.

The story of what happened in those 25 years to Nero and his crew could be interesting...
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
-H. L. Mencken
----------------------
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which "unskilled people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average.

#6 Gen'Buck'Turgidson

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 01:32 PM

You think my Lost stuff is bad, start a Trek thread.

Seriously though, I really could blow the forum up here, so I'll just keep it simple and say I'm a huge Trekkie and I was very nervous about it, and I fuckin loved it.

Have you read Star Trek: Countdown? They made a series of short comics that told Nero's and Spock's backstory, pretty cool. Spock narrates in the mind meld how it all happened - this is that story.

We get Admiral Picard, Capt. Data of the USS Enterprise E, etc. helping Spock, and see him and Nero sucked into the singularity he creates.

If you have an iPhone, you can download them straight into it.

Anyways, I will not bust out an essay here unless completely provoked. But like I said in a different thread, find me in Lot 13 if you want to hear a very cool Star Trek story of mine related to this movie from when I used to work at Paramount.

Put it here. We got nothing but time, right?
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
-H. L. Mencken
----------------------
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which "unskilled people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average.

#7 Gen'Buck'Turgidson

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 01:33 PM

Meh. Bring back the tribbles.
Posted Image

Posted Image
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
-H. L. Mencken
----------------------
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which "unskilled people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average.

#8 josh24601

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 04:03 PM

Some thought starters:
When we first see Nero (stupid name for a Romulan), he is a youngish dude.


The name Nero makes sense when you consider the Romulan's Roman-esque influence. After all, their home planet is ROMULUS, it's twin REMUS. Those are, of course, legendary names from Earth. I always liked to assume that those are the Terran terms for their planets, as Romulans obviously have no reason to name their planets after ancient Earth legends. Like how the Germans call their country Deutschland in their language but we call it Germany in ours.

So their planets are named after the founders of Rome and the Roman Empire. Also, they have ranks like "Centurion" which call back to that same Ancient Roman vibe that the 60s series gave them, along with the fist on the chest salutes, Caesar haircuts, etc.

Posted Image

The name Nero hearkens back to that.

25 years later we see him again, and without any explanation, he has a bit of his right ear torn off, and what looks like scars from a head plate that had since been removed.

It could be injuries as a result of the Kelvin ramming his ship and causing extensive damage, but it could also be a multitude of things that happened in the 25 years that passed between the encounter with the Kelvin and teh Enterprise engaging his vessel, not the least of which would be the 46 klingon ship fleet Nero destroyed shortly before Starfleet Academy empties it's classrooms to engage the 'lightning storm'.


Uhura talks about the transmission she intercepted about Nero fighting it out with the Klingons. There was a deleted scene(s) of Nero duking it out with the Klingon fleet and being captured/escaping from Rura Penthe. While you and I would have loved something like that, I think they decided it was overload for the average filmgoer.

Posted Image

Sayeth JJ (also click to see other deleted scenes like infant Spock with pointy ears):

"There was a big Klingon subplot in this, and we actually ended up having to pull it out because it confused the story in a way that I thought was very cool but unnecessary. So we have these beautiful designs that we’re going to have to wait and do elsewhere I guess."

In resetting the timeline with his appearance, not only did Nero screw up Kirk's life, but the Klingon Penal Colony destruction would have altered the coming Federation-Klingon war, the Khitomer Massacre and all that crap.


Basically they have a blank canvas now. They are kind of adhering to the idea - also from Lost which makes sense because the Lost writers were involved in this movie - that even alternate realities/timelines have a kind of "pull" that try to make things "come back in line." So like, you see Captain Pike in the wheelchair at the end, Kirk still Captain, Scotty still Engineer, etc. I have a feeling that future stories in this timeline will be their own stories, but always kind of hearken back to what we know.

So, yeah, the Klingons are going to be radically different now. Are they still going to ally with the Romulans after Nero wrecked their shit up? If they believe Nero was a rogue, maybe they will decide an alliance is necessary because of how closely they came to being wiped out by Nero.... etc.

The creation of an alternate timeline like this was brilliant because they still have Kirk & Co., they still have all of these fantastic races that we know so well, Romulans, Klingons, etc..... But they get to tell WHATEVER new story they want, in a way that maintains canonical integrity for the Trek Dorks like us, because Old Spock is the bridge between the two.

Honestly, you need to read the Countdown comics if you haven't yet, I'll let you borrow my iPhone on Sunday for 15 minutes if you wanna just read them on my phone. It shows how our TNG crew post-Nemesis was involved with Spock and Nero before they came through the singularity.

Why did he go to the Klingon system anyway? Nero's ship is mining vessel full of planetary geologists. How the hell would they know where and when Spock would reappear? They probably needed some kind of space/time physicists help to understand where Spock's appearance would be. Maybe they got the help form the Klingon's?


That's answered both in the deleted scenes and the comic. I'll let you read the comic on my phone or if you buy it rather than just explain how Nero's ship got so badass for a simple "mining ship" because it's more fun that way.

Needless to say, timelines for Klingon, Vulcan and Earth are all totally screwed up now.


Yes but beautifully so. Because if they just went back and did a simple "prequel" there would always be one very massive problem: WE KNOW THEY WONT DIE! Scotty dies after being held in the transporter buffer for a long time, Kirk dies after being sucked into the nexus and falling off a rickety bridge in one of the most lame deaths of a hero ever, etc. So no situation of jeopardy would ever really be convincing. Plus, they would have to dogmatically adhere to canon or else freak everybody out.

Now, we get to see them in this alternate reality where an entire new set of adventures can happen. A reality where Uhura wants some Spock lovin' for instance. But it's still our same old crew - Kirk still cheats the Kobyashi Maru, Bones is still Bones, etc. But the writers are totally free to create a new adventure without being tied down by the rules of the previous timeline.

Considering what they could have just done, which is to throw all of the Trek we know down the shitter and just rewrite from scratch - like they have done with almost ever other "reboot" in recent history - I am very glad that they found a way to have their cellular peptide cake and eat it too. Trek geeks' canon is preserved, the spirit of the characters and the universe remains, the writers have a blank sheet of paper to come up with whatever adventures they want, and they can make it as crowd-pleasing as possible while still giving it the brains and dignity that we expect.

The story of what happened in those 25 years to Nero and his crew could be interesting...


Wait for the DVD!

#9 josh24601

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 04:04 PM

Put it here. We got nothing but time, right?


They say time is the fire in which we burn....

#10 Ben7

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 08:38 PM

the cut scenes which hopefully will be on the dvd and were filmed should explain some of the stuff and questions - you will find all these infos on trekmovie.com - the source for all your Star Trek needs.

to boldy go - into new adventures...
IMO they pulled if off nicely, starting an alternate universe - changed timeline, but leaving 40 years of Star Trek as it was in a way...yet for the future, everything is possible and is not given by the famous canon...

the countdown comics are a must for fans

Uhura is hot :cool:

love the new cast, only Chekovs accent is too strong for my taste...

#11 Gen'Buck'Turgidson

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 09:47 PM

I felt Nero was half baked thanks to the deleted scenes.
Bana, who did a pretty good job with him, had to be a little bit pissed about the deletions.

I loved the way he called Pike 'Christopher'.

Karl Urban was fantastic as Bones. Not our Bones, that Bones.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
-H. L. Mencken
----------------------
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which "unskilled people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average.

#12 Gen'Buck'Turgidson

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 10:46 PM

Posted Image

From my favorite Original Series episode "Balance of Terror".
Even when I first saw it when I was 7 or so, I knew the Romulan ship captain was Sarek and it cornfused me. Mark Lenard rules.
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
-H. L. Mencken
----------------------
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which "unskilled people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average.

#13 josh24601

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Posted 15 May 2009 - 11:58 PM

I felt Nero was half baked thanks to the deleted scenes.
Bana, who did a pretty good job with him, had to be a little bit pissed about the deletions.


Yeah, I can see what you are saying, but I disagree. But I think that JJ made the right choice as director about that. Did we REALLY need to see Nero wander around in a Klingon prison and shit? No... It had nothing to do with the story, which is about our crew forming and joining to stop Nero from blowing up Vulcan and Earth. If this was a movie about Nero, perhaps, and all great villains see themselves as the hero of the story, but we understood that he wanted to destroy Vulcan and Earth, and that it was up to our heroes to stop him. If you diverge from that, you start to loose people who could give a rats ass about Rura Penthe. JJ making decisions like that is why this thing opened up to 75 mil versus Nemesis GROSSING something like 45 domestically in its entire run. How many "normal" people in the audience would be sitting there saying "WTF is this? Where's Kirk?" Too many, I think.

The Trekkie geeks like us can see all that shit in the DVD.

Karl Urban was fantastic as Bones. Not our Bones, that Bones.


Karl Urban was AMAZING.... He WAS Leonard H McCoy. Sulu and Chekov were new young actors playing those parts just fine. But nobody was confusing Anton Yelchin for Walter Koenig. Although listening him try to announce shit over the ship's PA kept making laugh - because I was imagining him ask where dee nooclear wessel een Alameedah was. lmao.

Cool story about Urban. Of the cast, he was a BIG Trekkie. Others weren't... Uhura (Zoe Saldana) had zero interest in Star Trek when she was cast (although her mother was a Trekkie and would call her during the shoot and give her tips on Uhura) but she could have cared less about it before she was cast. But Urban was a big ol' Trekkie, and he had actually just bought all of the old DVDs and watched all of them with his kid a few months before he got the call about the part. So he was PRIMED to be McCoy. And you could tell, he was an absolute joy to watch... I think once we met him is when I began to 100% believe that these were those characters. One of my favorite lines of the movie that NOBODY in the theater laughed at except for me was when they were getting their assignments in the beginning, and Spock talks shit to Kirk and walks away, and Kirk goes "Who was that pointy eared bastard?" And McCoy's face lights up and he goes "I don't know, but I LIKE HIM!" I busted up. As much of a mainstream hit as this is, they really did write it for people who got the jokes like that...

From my favorite Original Series episode "Balance of Terror".
Even when I first saw it when I was 7 or so, I knew the Romulan ship captain was Sarek and it cornfused me. Mark Lenard rules.


One thing that tweaked me a bit was Sarek in the movie. They gave him a British accent, which is SUCH a convention in films for authority and which Mark Lenard didn't have... And this Sarek was a bit more understanding and kind to Spock than we were used to, I think. It worked for the film, but I can't help but think the "real" Sarek would not have said those things. He would have wanted to, but he wouldn't have. Maybe? The great regret between Spock and Sarek is that Sarek never DID say that he was proud of Spock before he died. That's why Spock's mind meld with Picard was so moving, because through Picard, Spock could feel the lines Sarek said in this movie but never did in the "old timeline". I dunno, it's a minor nitpick, but the new Spock seems to have a bit of a different relationship with Sarek than the old one.

I say all of this realizing that if THIS is the biggest problem I have with the film, it fucking rocked. And it did, I'm still blown away by how much I loved it.

#14 tracer

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 12:27 AM

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...yeah i had to do it...

............

carry on

Team Tucker: You might be cool, but I am ZERO cool.  Foo


#15 Gen'Buck'Turgidson

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Posted 16 May 2009 - 12:55 AM

Yeah, I can see what you are saying, but I disagree. But I think that JJ made the right choice as director about that. Did we REALLY need to see Nero wander around in a Klingon prison and shit? No... It had nothing to do with the story, which is about our crew forming and joining to stop Nero from blowing up Vulcan and Earth. If this was a movie about Nero, perhaps, and all great villains see themselves as the hero of the story, but we understood that he wanted to destroy Vulcan and Earth, and that it was up to our heroes to stop him. If you diverge from that, you start to loose people who could give a rats ass about Rura Penthe. JJ making decisions like that is why this thing opened up to 75 mil versus Nemesis GROSSING something like 45 domestically in its entire run. How many "normal" people in the audience would be sitting there saying "WTF is this? Where's Kirk?" Too many, I think.

The Trekkie geeks like us can see all that shit in the DVD.

Absolutely, trekkies will get that shit in the long run, but the film truly had a hole in it, trekkie or not. It may not have needed all the Rura Penthe scenes, but it was missing something, and most of it was Bana's performance.

Sulu and Chekov were new young actors playing those parts just fine.

Sulu is not a new actor...John Cho is not only not young, 35, but was the lead in Harold & Kumar I & II. Chekov is not only young, but is an actual Russian condemned by fate to imitate Walter Koenig's imitation Russian accent. Talk about alternate universe...

Great story on Urban...
Nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
-H. L. Mencken
----------------------
The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which "unskilled people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average.




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