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Enough is enough!


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#1 TommyMack

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 01:55 AM

Even though LARS is one of the most culturally diverse groups on the fucking planet, there is one thing that I want to stop, and it's BECAUSE we are one of the most culturally diverse groups on the planet.

WE ARE ENDING ANY CHANTS ABOUT BEING GAY.

We defend ourselves against racism, but not bigotry? Especially when there are gay/lesbian people who consider themselves to be a part of the LARS family? It's got to stop, and it's got to stop NOW. No excuses. Look, as a comedian, I often go for the easy joke. But this one is just as stupid and ugly as the people who used to casually say "you dumb nigger!" in the 60's.

And yeah, there'll be no "Oh Sascha, you're so gay, you're so gay, the way you play HEY SASCHA!".

Even I have done stupid things like this. But it's really a sign of ignorance and I always envisioned LARS to be a bit better than the rest. Can I stop any individual from barking out this bile? Nope. LARS is the single most free soccer drinking club around. But if I hear a chant started that uses this bigoted slur, I'll do everything in my power to stop it.

But ask yourself, if someone in 138 started yelling, "YOU'RE JUST A NIGGER!" as opposed to saying "YOU'RE JUST A FAGGOT!!*", would you let it slide?

We're late to step up, but we're doing it now. I can imagine the crap I'm going to hear from this, but it's the right thing to do and you KNOW it is. I appreciate your help.

Tommy Mack


* Nobody ever used this term in a chant. It's for comparison reasons.

PS: And yelling "HEY [player], NICE ASS!" is not offensive because it's neutral, it really blows their mind, and hopefully makes them shank their corner kick.

#2 josh24601

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 02:10 AM

This space for rent.





If it wasn't for the fact that the Sacha chant really fucking irritates him (visibly) I would not care in the slightest.

I just know that there's no other chant in the planet (and this is the only chant we're talking about because it's the only time it ever comes up) that will have the same effect on him. People will try to come up with replacements but it won't screw him up the same way.

Oh well.

PS Sacha isn't actually gay. His girlfriend is hot as shit, just look on Facebook. So it's not like calling somebody a n*****. Unless they were white, then it would be the same. Except n***** is a slur and "gay" isn't. So. I dunno. I guess it's only a slur if you consider being gay bad. That hadn't occurred to me, I just know it messes his head up. He can't mask the loathing for us in his eyes when we do that, and when he flips us off, I feel warm and fuzzy inside.

If the dude was actually gay it would be different. But he's not. It's just funny and effective to make him angry.

Oh well.

#3 bardgal

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 02:27 AM

Yes, "gay" is a slur if used as it's used in that cheer. Period. Otherwise you wouldn't use it, and it wouldn't work. Just like if someone says, "that's so gay" when they should say "that's so lame" - it is a slur, you mean it as a slur, otherwise it would be pointless to say, and it's very insulting used in that way, especially to gay people (used in that way, as in "my brother is gay, he is not a fag - that is insulting", is not a slur.)

It is ugly, and mean, at the expense of some of our own. I think we're way better than that. If we're not, we should be.
Zidane, veuillez venir le jeu pour la Galaxy!

Ná glac pioc comhairle gan comhairle ban.

I'll trying being nicer, if you try being smarter.

#4 josh24601

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 02:42 AM

Okay, I'm just saying I've had gay friends call straight dudes gay just to rile them up, and it's funny as hell, and it exposes what's going on in the person's head who gets upset about it.

This is a timely topic, as people debate the Bruno movie. Does he ridicule and mock gays, or expose the prejudice in others by forcing them to confront their most feared stereotype? Are we just going "haha look at the fag" or getting in Sacha's head and messing him up? HE'S NOT EVEN GAY.

I'll never believe that the chant is bigoted or homophobic given its context (which is key), BUT obviously it gets other LARS upset, and LARS is about fun and beer, not getting each other upset, so I will get on board.

But I think rather than try to convince people that it's a terrible thing to say (when that is up for debate and will only guarantee a massive debate) stress that it upsets people regardless, and only the true a-holes will persist.

EDIT: The best argument against my "context is key" line is the mariachi thing. Everybody here knew the context, but to the rest of the world it looked poor.

#5 Gen'Buck'Turgidson

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 02:49 AM

#1-
GOD BLESS AMERICA
Posted Image

#2-
Better late than never. Welcome to the right side of the issue.

#3-
I sincerely hope people start viewing 'gay' chants as BEING A DICK. It seems like a long shot. See my signature below.

#4-
There are much better ways than the blunt U R GAY to make fun of people. It requires some thinking and a bit of creativity...not all of you have that...so just shut the fuck up if the best you can do is UR GAY.

#5-
GOD BLESS AMERICA
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The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which "unskilled people reach erroneous conclusions and make unfortunate choices but their incompetence robs them of the metacognitive ability to realize it." The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their own ability as above average.

#6 CALEXICO

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 03:59 AM

I am Calexico and I approve this message.



Here's the deal -

1) Easily 50% of my friends are gay. I still think calling them "fag" when they get snippy with me is funny, and so do they.

2) When you start a chant in the Riot Squad, you aren't just representing yourself, you're representing all of us. Calling someone "gay" regardless of their actual homosexuality is something you should feel free to do on your own time. Don't use our numbers to camouflage your prejudices.

3) When you start a chant in the Riot Squad, you aren't calling your friends gay, in a way to get a playful rise out of them. You are purposefully trying to fuck with an opponent. Listen carefully - YOU ARE USING THE WORD "GAY" AS AN EPITHET TO HURT SOMEONE. Sacha isn't your friend.

4) Unless everyone involved is lying to me, the Mariachi band was in no way an attempt to say "HA HA, YOU GUYS ARE SO MEXICAN, BEING MEXICAN IS STUPID, HA HA". Instead it was a genius move on the part of those involve to say, "Um, yeah, you guys keep claiming that you're the latino team, and we're the white team. Well, that's bullshit. We're as Mexican as you are, so check this shit out".

#7 Zero Cool

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 04:10 AM

Its about God damn time.
As stupid as the Turkey chants
As stupid as my proposed "White Power!" chant, which I still think could be awesome.

Time to grow up, flex that muscle we call "brains" and come up with something a bit more creative
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#8 projectx

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 04:13 AM

I'm not going to make a list like everyone else, just point some things out.

Gay is most definitely not a slur. Never is, never will be, the way it is used in the chant is an aspersion, not a slur, because in the chant you're accusing Sacha of being gay when he in fact isn't, thereby making it an aspersion. Slurs are fag and queer because they are considered derogatory when not in friendly context..

Which brings me to Steers and Queers... while I have participated in this chant because of the group, it's never sat well with me.

After working at a company full of gays I can tell you that Calexico is right, they use the terms gay, fag, and queer as jokes and direct them at their straight friends like it's nothing and don't mind reciprocation, but again as Calexico said, Sacha is not our friend.

Well that actually does look like a list, oh well.

I approve of this move, in case that isn't evident from my post :cheers:

#9 ESCO

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 05:10 AM

I agree with what you said Tommy, just tell me who got offended?

#10 Rick Two

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 08:53 AM

Calexico said:

When you start a chant in the Riot Squad, you aren't calling your friends gay, in a way to get a playful rise out of them. You are purposefully trying to fuck with an opponent. Listen carefully - YOU ARE USING THE WORD "GAY" AS AN EPITHET TO HURT SOMEONE. Sacha isn't your friend.


I agree. Good move, Tommy et al.

#11 Caasi Gohd

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 09:59 AM

Okay guys, no more Tijuana whoring... I find it offensive to the working women from Northern Mexico. It's a real profession and often the only source of livelihood for the most needy in the region and it should not be denigrated.

Pffffft.


I'm with Josh... but I believe somebody else already said it best

There are gay members of the Riot Squad. There IS a line that makes a comment truly homophobic, but in my opinion, "Sacha, you're so gay, the way you play!" or even "Steers and Queers, I don't see no horns on you!" doesn't quite cross that line.

The squad is NOT racist nor homophobic, and I think we ALL somewhat know when it crosses the line. Hell, referring to RTB and RokSteady as our "token black/asian" for so many years (though we have a shitload more now) doesn't quite cross the line... because WE ALL KNOW when it's no longer funny and breaks LARS Rule #1.


But I won't make no trouble. I'll be there when we invite Sacha for tea & crumpets.

#12 TommyMack

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 10:36 AM

Yes, I agree that CONTEXT is important. And I'm glad it's up for debate as I see that as a healthy thing for a group of our size. Nobody wants LARS to be uber-PC, hell... we WROTE the rules of dark sardonic wit in MLS. Even I've written on these boards "That's gay! And not the cool 'two guy's sucking each other's cocks gay', but the BAD kind of gay!" Does that cross the line? I personally don't think so, but perhaps it does and as a creative person, I can make my comedic points elsewhere.

I just think it's time to evolve this one out.

Still, I'm proud of LARS for stepping up in the thread with a very rational and timely discussion.

tm

#13 bardgal

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 10:58 AM

Tommy's spot on. This should be evolved out.

I can't speak for Tommy, (well, sometimes when he's sleeping I can..... ;) ), I don't know if anyone actually came up to him and said, (I am so offended by that cheer...), but I for one, am offended. Yes, "context" IS key. Most of my gay friends find that term offensive when used in that way. And I'm sure there are non-LARS who sit around us in the stadium who hear that and are also offended by it, (and also by the STEERS & QUEERS cheer - which is older that I AM - I mean, come ON people!), straight & gay alike.

A white person using the n-word is 99% offensive (the only 1% non-offensive I can imagine is McLovin' using it in a scripted funny situation), yet a black person saying the same word, is usually (now) a term of endearment, because they've taken control of that word in certain contexts.

Personally, there's a word I'd like to take more control of, so from now on, that's La Cuntess to all of YOU. :D
Zidane, veuillez venir le jeu pour la Galaxy!

Ná glac pioc comhairle gan comhairle ban.

I'll trying being nicer, if you try being smarter.

#14 Rick Two

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 11:01 AM

Even I've written on these boards "That's gay! And not the cool 'two guy's sucking each other's cocks gay', but the BAD kind of gay!"


See, to me, this is on the safe side of the line for two reasons:

1) You pointed out to my satisfaction that you weren't trying to cast actual homosexuality as bad. (i.e., making the distinction then implying that whatever "bad gay" is, actual gayness isn't bad)

2) Audience. You weren't trying to ruin someone's day by counting on them to take "gay" as a pejorative, but (presumably, since I never read the original comment) busting your friend's balls and trusting (appropriately, given all I know about LARS) that they knew you weren't trying to smack down gay people. LARS' gay readers presumably know your personal sense of humor, and the group's collective one, well enough to take it as intended, and to fire back as appropriate, and everyone trusts that no one is gonna get hurt. Totally different context from when we're saying "Gay!" to Chivas players hoping it'll piss them off and make them lose.

Plus: Sacha surely expects the gay chant by now. We should be able to get something new that will surprise him and that he won't be able to tune out. There are some sadistic fucks here, many of whom are really funny, and I bet we can do better :)

#15 DirtyDefender

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Posted 03 July 2009 - 11:48 AM

All "You Suck" chants Suck.

We should phase them out as well.

Other than that, I'm confused by this thread and can't figure out which songs are deemed "Acceptable" and which ones "Cross the Line". This topic has been brought up and debated enough that apparently, it's marginal.

I never start any of these types of songs anyway, so I'll just go by the old rule of: If you don't like it, don't sing it.

I rarely participate in the "Steers and Queers" chant, just because it's not all that good IMHO.

"Hey Sacha" is pretty catchy though. You'll need to come up with something else to get under Sacha's skin if you want to stop doing that one.




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